qns on ball weight and stuff

[Miffy1980]

Hi folks, i am neither new to bowling nor to this site. im just your friendly neighborhood lurker that decided to drop in and say hi.

also due to other commitments, i stopped bowling for a good 6 years and recently caught the bowling bug during a chanced outing at an alley. i didnt have coaching prior the big break from bowling. I am more of a serious amature that bowls a lot with some mates, had a starters set, got a quantum ball at cash converters and thats about it.

guess what, after all these years, the only thing that survived storage is the plastic ball. quantum cracked, shoes just fell apart (real cheapo starters shoes).

and i figured if i still have the passion after stopping all these years, thats gotta mean something right.

right now im bowling with my cousin on a 1 time per week basis right now. i am still  using my 12lbs plastic ball. i have put on a fair bit of weight over the years and i am now 132lbs. so im thinking of getting new gear. mainly because that old 12lbs has a pretty wide thumb hole, it seems that i squeeze the thumb a fair bit in the past and now that the ball feels lighter, i dont do that anymore more, coupled with adding more pressure on the index, i now have a ball dropping problem. so new gear for the new year i suppose

however this is where you guys come in.
im kinda hesitant when the pro shop guy suggest i get a 14lbs ball. i was looking at maybe a 13lb. but it seems to be some kind of a cult with 14s here. its like every proshop owner i spoke to (3 in total) suggest i go 14lbs.

what do u guys reckon on that?

here is my general plan, get a new plastic ball, get proper coaching and see where i go from there.

not going to get any reactives yet, i figure go plastic with the coaching on my basics first, finger tip grip, proper 5step approach, get a good swing and release, work on a consistent aim, THEN we talk about learning oil, lane conditions and ball reactions.

[JohnP]

Hi, Miffy, and welcome to BR.  One reason 14 lbs is recommended, if you can handle it, is that when manufacturers go below 14 lbs they have to change the design of the core in the ball to make the lower weight.  Now, on a plastic ball except for the Lane 1 XXXL, a "pancake core" is used instead of a dynamic core and lower weights have the same type core.  First question, are you male or female?  A 132 lb male with reasonable strength should be able to handle a 14 lb ball.  I would recommend a lighter ball for most 132 lb females.  If you're really serious about the game and want to improve you'll get an entry level or one step up reactive resin ball, use a fingertip grip and learn to hook the ball.  Reactive resin balls are much easier to hook than plastic balls.  The pro shop guys you've talked to should be able to make a better recommendation than you'll get from anyone here since they are able to watch you bowl and evaluate your strength in person.  If everyone is saying 14 lbs, I'd say try one.  --  JohnP

[Juggernaut]

Hey Miffy, welcome back to bowling .

  Here is what I see.  I see someone who would like to get back into an activity that they once participated in, but on a limited basis, even thouh they are a little more serious about it than your "average" recreational bowler.

 It sounds like you have a good gameplan for getting back into things. Problem is, things have changed so much in the last few years that I'm not sure you can learn the proper mechanics with a plastic ball anymore.

  The oils they use today are much "slicker" than the older oils, and they use much higher volumes at many centers than ever before.  At many centers, a plastic ball will give you NO reaction because of this. That makes it hard to read whether you are actually performing the release properly because the ball never reads the pattern due to its low frictional qualities.

  I'm more concerned with your ball choice than I am with the weight of the ball. True, John P. has stated facts about the difference between 14lb and 13lb (and lighter) balls, but more important to you at this point ( I feel ) is being able to have a ball with enough frictional capabilities to help you see the difference between proper and improper execution, even if this means going with a reactive ball.

 There are a few balls that still have some dynamic core integrity in a 13lb weight. Storm lists their three "HOT" line ( FAST, FURIOUS, and NATURAL ) of balls all the way down to the 13lb level with good numbers.

 If simplicity sounds good to you, then don't even worry about core dynamics yet, and just go with an old style ball with a stronger cover on it.  Hammer still offers a couple like that, the original RAZYR ( http://hammerbowling.com/products/product_detail/razyr_purple/ ) and the newer Red/Black one ( http://hammerbowling.com/products/product_detail/razyr_black_red/ ).

 14lb balls would be better because of a wider variety, and a bit more powerful than the 13lb ones, but NOT if you can't throw them. Having too heavy a ball is as bad as not having one heavy enough.

  If you feel comfortable with 13lbs, then I say go with that first, then, if you think you could handle more, upgrade to 14lbs when you go to buy your "good" ball.  

  Sorry this got so long, just want to see you weigh your options so that you can come back and really enjoy the sport/game again. It's GREAT!
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[charlest]

Miffy,

One other item that I don't think was mentioned yet: once your ball is fit for your hand, with the right pitches (angles of the holes) and span, you will be handle to handle a heavier ball than your plastic with the too large thumb hole. This is even more true for alley or center balls which use generic sized holes and spans.

If the ball fits you right, you'll be able to easily use 1 - 2 pounds heavier ball than when a ball does not fit you correctly.

I also like your plan to take one step at a time. Good luck.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

[Miffy1980]

thanks johnP, jugg and charlest for your valuable insights.

Your posts were all great to read and not too lengthy.

Im a guy.

I am going to give your comments a deeper thought and let u guys know what comes up.

I do particularly like point on gettting something reactive to learn to read lanes while im at it. And its a valid point that i missed out regarding the ability to tell if i had a proper release with a reactive shell.


o yeh guys, i have been trying to get myself up to date with the current line ups of the various brands out there, back in my time, there was particle coverstock, but now i only see proprietor coverstock names. How do i tell if its a reactive shell or a particle shell? i guess this is more pertaining to the higher end series. Im not looking at getting them anytime but it would be good to know.

Or have they marketed particle balls differently from 6 years ago? because back then, they'd make sure u know its a particle coverstock.

[Juggernaut]

Mr. Miffy, it is a different world from 6 years ago. Somewhere along the line, particle balls got a real bad reputation for soaking up oil and losing performance, so people started to shy away from balls marketed as particle.

 That doesn't mean they're not still out there, but they are very seldom marketed as that anymore. Usually, if they are particle, you will find somewhere that they have an "additive" or "mica" or some other thing added to increase friction, and it many times ends up being a particle of some type.

 If you ever have a question about a ball, come here and ask. There are officionados from virtually every company that come through here from time to time, and quite a few staff guys here who will have insight into ball construction and cover composition, and that's not even counting the nerdy guys (like me) who keep up with things like that as a recreational activity .

  With the recent changes in coverstock technology, particle technology has almost become redundant.  Solid reactives are so strong anymore that you really don't need particles anymore, but they're still some out there.
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[Miffy1980]

Thanks Jugg.

Wow.. thats pretty amazing..

well id definitely be back with questions. seems like a great era for bowling.

wait till i tell my mates about particle. It would knock them off their socks.

[Miffy1980]

hi guys i just got back from yet another casual game with my cousin and his wife.

And had the opportunity to talk to the shop owner whom is giving my cousin lessons, (yup seems thats how it works around here, u give coaching as well as run the shop).

Talked to him to arrange lessons of my own, and when i mentioned about getting new gear, it took him 3 seconds and 2 questions to jump in with his recommendation.

Shop owner and to-be coach: so u have an existing plastic ball i see

me: erm yes, and im looking to get new gear and step up from 12lbs to 14lbs with your coaching i hope that would work out.so im kinda looking for a 14lbs plastic ball before we kick start lessons proper.

Shop owner: O why not get a 13lbs entry level reactive and u can use the 12 for spares. that way u wont need to get 2 balls.

me: (my BS radar switches on) ok what do u have in mind? like get a scout or groove?

Shop owner: nah, i was thinking tropical storm, its one level up of scout.

me:Oh u mean it have a bulb core?

Shop owner: (surprised) yeh, but its still entry level.

melooks around and steps up to his display) u mean this one? (pointing to the only tropical storm on display like Captain Obvious)

Shop ower: yeh thats the one, its a 13lbs.(something tells me thats the only tropical storm in the shop)

me: picks up the ball, flips it over and notices pin and CG are practically kissing each other.

I commented on it (pretending i know what that meant, and showed concerned)

shop owner: O thats alright for entry level balls to have pins and CG right next to each other, its going to be drilled mild anyways.

me: I see, well let me go think about your suggestion and I will call you to make arrangements for the lessons?

Shop owner: Ok

Guys what do you think? honestly speaking, i know nuts about pins and CG and layouts.

care to educate me on pin and CG distance

More importantly, what do you guys think of the shop owner and what is he trying to pull? is my BS radar working?

Edited on 1/4/2010 4:23 AM

[dizzyfugu]

Hmmm, personally, I'd go for a 14lbs. fingertip ball and skip the 13 pounder. As charlest mentioned, a properly fitting ball is much more confortable to hold than a house ball, so 2 pounds more should be no problem. A female friend of mine also started with 10 lbs. house balls, then had 12 lbs. fingertip equipment and after a short time moved to 14 lbs. - and she was/is pretty slender!

I'd either go for an entry level ball (Tropical Storm is agood choice, also Brunswick's Power Grooves) or a lower end mid price piece, which costs a bit more but offers a "true" core, making the ball rollier and easier to handle on oilier conditions.

Additionally, I'd consider a new spare ball of the same weight and also with the same drilling. When I started with fingertip, I had a 14 lbs. conventional polyester spare ball and a 14 lbs. fingertip reactive. While this difference does not sound serious, I found the different feeling very confusing. And it only got better when I finally moved to 15 lbs. all fingertip.

Concerning the offered Tropical Storm: yes, entry level balls tend to have both CG and pin close to each other. But as a fingertip beginner you will probably get a so-called label-layout, with the CG in the palm area and the pin whereever it will end up in a north-east position from the CG. This is frequent practice, because your ball driller will hardly have a reference (the PAP) of your game to cook together a more sophisticated setup, and you will probably only need a ball that just "hooks" until you have a stable style and release.

That's another selling point for an entry level ball - start small, do not "waste" money with an expensive first fingertip ball rather save something for the next one (which might already be 1 pound heavier!) and/or a coach, to get the basics right.

Good luck, though, and have fun!
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DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany

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[Miffy1980]

thanks dizzy and others for their valuable inputs.

Will keep you guys posted on my progress.

The advice i get here makes so much more sense and have so much more depth that i have been getting at the shops.

Ok i guess im ready to get so gear, it will take place within a week or so, depending my schedule.

My next concern is the thumb hole. Anything i should pay attention to? I am going for finger inserts and thumb slug. Round hole? I did read the sticky in the other section but i dont quite understand what bevel means and its difference to oval.

anyone can clue me in on that?

[AngloBowler]

Hi Miffy,

Glad to see you're putting a lot of thought and time into this, something surprisingly few people do.

It does sound like he's trying to get rid of his last tropical storm if I'm honest. I think that if you find your 12 lb ball light and you've noticed the drilling is not right for you, then chances are a properly drilled 13 is going to feel light as well. I would suggest 14 lb as a minimum.

If you can pick up a cheap entry-level reactive, then it's worth a look as you should be able to drill it mild enough that you can learn with it. Way back when, I started with my first reactive, and it was the only ball I had for about 2-3 years, which limited me in some respects but made the game easier in others.

The reason I suggest going for something budget is that you may find in 6 months that you're ready to move up to 15 lb. If you are, you haven't spent a bundle on a 14 lb ball (which may be difficult to resell), if you're not, you still have a usable ball to learn with.

As for pin-CG distances, I would imagine you'd want something shortish (2" or less) so that you can put a label drill on it, which should keep it nice and calm.
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Reporting from England

[dizzyfugu]

For the thumb hole, first of all have your hand measured correctly so that the pitches are all right from the start. By tendency, the thumb hole will be round and bigger than actually needed. The tumb will swell and shrink, so there is room for adaptations. That said, I'd consider some tape for the thumb hole, to make it snug and fit yout hand properly. Your pro shop should help you with this, maybe even as a part of the drilling package.

Tape might sound exotic to a beginner, but do not underestimate it - esp. when the thumb hole has room - you might tend to have to grip too tight, and tape is the best remedy.

For bevel and such, try the ball immediately after it has been drilled. Normally, the ball driller will hand you the ball for test fitting, and you should tell if you have the feeling that you hang onto the ball somewhere, or that there are areas which rub or cause pressure. The ball driller will be careful not to sand away to much in the beginning, since what's gone is gone!

As a final notion, I'd also recommend a thumb slug and probably finger inserts. The thumb slug will give you an even feel (filler can be rough), esp. when you have more than one ball, and the finger inserts will improve grip and lift - overall, handling the ball becomes a bit more comfortable.
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[JohnP]

13 lb is an "odd" ball weight, so I think the guy you're talking to has one he'd like to get rid of.  Most men want 14 lbs or heavier and most females want either 12 lbs or 14+ lbs.  Junior bowlers do sometimes use 13 lbs.  The Tropical Storm is a good ball, but if you think you can handle 14 lbs that's what I'd recommend.  Ask the driller if he has a 14 lb ball you can put in a cloth sling (he'll know what you're asking for) to swing it and see how the weight feels.  I've read a lot of good things about the Columbia Freeze, which is one step up from the Power Groove, Tornado, etc. level.  I'll be drilling my first one for a customer tomorrow and will report back on how it performs.  We sell it for about $110, which includes fitting and drilling but not grips or a slug.  --  JohnP

[Miffy1980]

Thanks Anglo, Dizzy and JohnP

much appreciated advice.

Anglo, I never gave 15 a thought, id be happy with 14, but now that u mention it.. hmm... very interesting.

[dizzyfugu]

Yup, do not get intimidated by the weight numbers. A properly drilled ball is easy to hold, so one pound more is not as severe as it might sound in the first place.
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DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany

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