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Author Topic: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?  (Read 4045 times)

splendorlex

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I've been doing videos of myself for a few months now, and just recently noticed that I seem to be pushing the ball out to the right a little bit.  You can see a vid here.  I also noticed that perhaps this is causing me to wrap the ball around my back, and also causing my weird third stutter step, perhaps to get my leg out of the way quicker.  Heck, it could be causing a LOT of the problems I have.  Thoughts?


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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...

I invented America.

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KDawg77

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2007, 02:19:58 PM »
I'll take a look from home for sure (can't see it at work). My Kegel video, if I can locate if, proves I was the king of wrapping around my back.
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spinner031

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2007, 02:23:48 PM »
You kind of let the ball go a little early.

APheLion

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2007, 02:36:32 PM »
i would say the footwork and timing is the issue, i had a similar problem before last year's fall

ur 3rd step doesnt move forward at all, it looks like  it goes to the point where the 2nd step ended at.

i used to push away in my 3rd step(5 step approach). the ball was "bangbang"ing the foul line. took me about 2 weeks to get the timing corrected.

i tried slowing the approach down with less backswing but get the footwork corrected, corrected in a sense make it rhythmical and fluent.
instead of focusing the mark and the release, i only paid attention to the approach, i can say practically i was saying out loud 1,2,3,4,5 during my approach.
on 1, star pushing the ball, not completely out
on 2, keep pushing, when the right arm is straight, let the support arm go away
on 3, the ball at the bottom of the swing
on 4, ball on top of my backswing, all the body weight on my right leg for my power step
on 5, let the ball fall down naturally and at the bottom of the swing just let it go.

that helped me on the timing and push away.

hope it helps

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ThongPrincess

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2007, 02:48:43 PM »
Since you stated you were concerned with the swing going out slightly, I noticed you tuck the elbow into your body at the start.  You might try to bring it more to the side.  This will allow the arm to get in a pendulum swing from the start, or as my coach states get into the slot right away.
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splendorlex

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2007, 04:42:46 PM »
My coach has never said a word about my weird footwork.  (He's a Gold Coach, too!)  I'll have to ask him at my next lesson if it's something I should worry about.  It sure looks funny, but I don't even know I'm doing it.  Strange!  Also, I tuck the elbow in because I tend to have a flying elbow, sometimes chicken winging the ball.  Thanks for the thoughts so far!
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...

I invented America.

Proud member of the Track Legion, though I'm seeing other companies on the side.  

mrbowlingnut

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2007, 04:52:02 PM »
I will make this simply for you if you are pushing the ball forward,sideways or up it is wrong. Anyone teaching you differently is taking your money plain and simple, i tried helping you in your one of your first posts when you posted your video.

There is no pushaway in bowling there is setting the ball into the swing plane, whichs mean walking ball the ball and letting gravity take it's natural course. Also there is no way to eliminate all musculing of the ball you have to uses your muscles to start the ball in it's forward motion.

You hold the ball with most of the weight on your opposite hand it will make setting the ball into the swing plane 100 times easier.

I was taught these methods by Billy Hall for many many hours, these come straight from the best bowling coach in the world not me.

dunk

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2007, 09:51:41 PM »
I would agree with mrbowlingnut, push away is a term alot of bowlers use but probally not the best term it's more about putting the ball in motion. You tend to do this a little late by the way it looks thus causing you to use your arm muscles to get the ball were you want it that would cause you to come around your body and alot of other things like the studder step you see. If you think of your arm as a pendulium and not trying to make the swing do want you want but let the swing get the ball out on the lane and across your target I believe you will hit your mark more consistantly and also have a more consistant release pattern. I hope this helps.

Jeff
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themagician

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2007, 09:59:15 PM »
I would suggest (as previously stated) try to get the ball into your swing earlier. I would suggest starting the ball a little higher at the beggining of your approach because you take time to bring the ball up. IMO you should just push and be into your swing, due to your timing being late also causes the mistimed 3rd step.

I do know this from experience and from working with a gold level coach and seeing myself on tape, believe me you are close but just getting the ball into your swing and staying a little lower at the line and your there.

Keep it up as your making progress man.
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splendorlex

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2007, 10:49:51 PM »
Thanks all, I will work on freeing up my armswing, and trying to get it started sooner.  Should I not push away at all, and just hold the ball and let it drop?  Should I maybe start what is my pushaway now on my first step?  I know my timing is off, I'm just not sure what the best approach would be to fix it.
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Mr. Lebowski, this is Bill Salnicker with the Southern Cal Bowling League, and I just got a, an informal report, that a member of your team, uh, Walter Sobchak, drew a firearm during league play. If this is true of course, it contravenes a number of the league's by-laws, and article 27 of the league...

I invented America.

Proud member of the Track Legion, though I'm seeing other companies on the side.  

northface28

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2007, 11:31:19 PM »
There is no pushaway, think about it. You're letting the ball fall and walking by it. I cant really explain via internet, if you could somehow get a hold of Ron Nelson Jr and have him show you, you'd know what I mean. Also try opening your hips to start, that should prohibit you going around your back.
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nospareball

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #11 on: May 23, 2007, 02:05:35 AM »
I'm no expert but it looks like you just need some rhythm in your approach.  Things as they stand now look forced, and un-natural.  Does it feel natural to you?  Or are you thinking of a bunch of things during your approach?  

The studder-step might not be a bad thing if you can get your swing in time with it.  In order to do that you need to start the ball earlier, or in a more straight forward direction instead of forward, out and up.  Getting things moving earlier might cure the third step and give you more of a power step so you can get into your slide lower and with more power.

Amleto

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #12 on: May 23, 2007, 05:01:59 AM »
par bowling by thomas kouros has some very good sections on ball placement, definitely worth a read.

your starting ball position is very low considering the height of your backswing.  If you raised it you would need less muscle in your backswing.

I made a quick paint image so you can see what shape your push away should be depending on the initial height.

http://server3.uploadit.org/files/amleto-123456.jpg


short answer to your question:  yes, your push away needs to start significantly earlier.
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Edited on 5/23/2007 5:00 AM

Edited on 5/23/2007 5:01 AM
Am-1337-o

KDawg77

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #13 on: May 23, 2007, 08:22:09 AM »
I'm in agreement with those who said that the footwork isn't a real concern.

I'd like to see you with more knee bend and not hunching over from your waist. This will help you raise your ball in your stance.

The next and biggest problem is that you let the ball fall off away from your body, e.g. an outside-in swing. This will almost automatically send the ball behind your back, cause you to swing around your torso, and give you a higher erratic launch angle. You're a less dramatic version of me since I'm a cranker. What worked for me was centering the ball on my torso and then bringing it back diagonally away from my hip. This allowed for my to "slot" my arm swing more consistently. The swing is inside-out and feels almost like a "figure eight". The best example was Andrew Cain from this year's tour
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Fluff E Bunnie

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Re: Is my pushaway hurting me? And maybe affecting my footwork?
« Reply #14 on: May 23, 2007, 09:54:29 AM »
Sorry in advance for this book:

I am totally not a pro but my pushaway is always what causes my problems so I have to chime in even if I am wrong.  I have a notorious late timing problem that comes back again when I start getting lazy on the pushaway.  

I noticed your pushaway was kind of down instead of fully extended and out and the backswing is really high compared to how low the pushaway starts.

I also agree with the above poster that said it is better to actually take the weight of the ball in your left hand and get it out with our right arm fully extended and then let the ball fall into the swing.

"There is no pushaway in bowling there is setting the ball into the swing plane, whichs mean walking ball the ball and letting gravity take it's natural course. Also there is no way to eliminate all musculing of the ball you have to uses your muscles to start the ball in it's forward motion."

If you have a five step delivery, the ball should be going out in front of you timed up exactly with your 2nd step.  The ball should be fully extended when your 2nd step is hitting the ground.  If you have a late timing problem, you have to try to find a way to make yourself get it out there earlier than you are comfortable with.  I think if you had a better pushaway, it would smooth out your tempo and probably your footwork would change to match.

Also, I wanted to say something personal about coaches.  I know you said you get lessons from a gold coach.  I've taken lessons from USBC gold and silver coaches as well as many more lessons from someone who doesn't even have those designations but has years of professional bowling experience.  I have learned a lot from all three of these people, but each one seemed to emphasize different things to improve.

For example:
Gold coach: Didn't say anything about my timing at all.  He taught me how to keep my wrist from breaking and made me bend my knees more to get a better release and position.  This screwed me up at first but now I am way better off for this.
Silver coach: This guy was really all about the straightness of the armswing and really emphasizing targetting.  He went into timing with the video analysis but didn't seem to focus too much on the release at all.  He more went into 'when' to release the ball.
My usual coach: I have learned way more overall from this person.  His biggest emphasis for me is on timing.  Whenever I start to develop problems, surprise it's the pushaway again.  As long as I get the pushaway fully out there and don't get lazy and do a "half pushaway" and I don't let it get behind the 2nd step everything tends to fall in line.

What I am trying to say here is that each one of these guys gave me valuable info including the gold coach.  I will continue to try a different coach every now and then because they tend to have different suggestions to improve things.  I am just saying that sometimes even a gold coach will not emphasize something that can really help you.  This is why I try different people and incorporate all of their input.  I know some people aren't comfortable doing this but I would rather have multiple opinions to weigh than just one.  

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