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Author Topic: Urethane Comparison Video  (Read 23424 times)

Strider

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Urethane Comparison Video
« on: December 03, 2023, 09:22:04 AM »
Here is a really good comparison video of the Hammer Not Urethane, Hammer's Purple Urethane, Storm's IQ 78 urethane, and Storm's Pitch Black. They show 5 shots with each ball, both on THS and sport. They even have numbers showing how and when the balls slow down and hook.


 

bradl

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #1 on: December 04, 2023, 01:33:50 AM »
I'll piggyback on this one. Ron Hickland has also done the same, but went a bit further, in comparing the NU Blue Hammer, Purple Hammer, Blue Tank, Pitch Black, IQ Tour 78U, and an AMF Sumo, then compared all of those against a Storm DNA.

Also for S&Gs, he polished up a Radical Double Cross to basically show why we don't polish them up anymore like we did back in the day with the Blue Pearl, Red Pearl, and Pink Hammers.

He then attempted to polish those balls to show something about what is urethane and what isn't urethane, and some interesting revelations came out with some of the newer releases.

Very educational, especially along with The Black Bottle.


BL.
« Last Edit: December 04, 2023, 01:58:04 AM by bradl »

star

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #2 on: December 04, 2023, 09:51:24 AM »
I'll piggyback on this one. Ron Hickland has also done the same, but went a bit further, in comparing the NU Blue Hammer, Purple Hammer, Blue Tank, Pitch Black, IQ Tour 78U, and an AMF Sumo, then compared all of those against a Storm DNA.

Also for S&Gs, he polished up a Radical Double Cross to basically show why we don't polish them up anymore like we did back in the day with the Blue Pearl, Red Pearl, and Pink Hammers.

He then attempted to polish those balls to show something about what is urethane and what isn't urethane, and some interesting revelations came out with some of the newer releases.

Very educational, especially along with The Black Bottle.


BL.


I’d guess but am almost sure that the “black bottle” is something that we used to use called “Docs Magic Bowling Ball Elixir”

You’ll find quite a bit about it on this site from about 2004-2005.

Still have a couple of bottles of it, never know it may make a comeback on tour. ;)
Happy go lucky bowler from the UK.
Specs. 430rpm,18mph off hand. 11-12deg Tilt, 50-60 deg Rotation. PAP 5 1/4 by 3/4 up.
                   R.I.P.
Mo Pinel. The Guru.
Larry Matthews “The Bowling Professor”
Sawbones.
Thong Princess.
Thanks for the FUN times.

bradl

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #3 on: December 04, 2023, 04:09:33 PM »
I’d guess but am almost sure that the “black bottle” is something that we used to use called “Docs Magic Bowling Ball Elixir”

You’ll find quite a bit about it on this site from about 2004-2005.

Still have a couple of bottles of it, never know it may make a comeback on tour. ;)

I could see that happening, especially if it is taking a HP ball and giving it a urethane-like shape. But more than just giving it that shape, it's even getting it to react like urethane does, in not soaking up oil a high rate, and pushing it down the lane. If using that and then a simple resurfacing of the ball is only needed to get the reactive ball back to how it normally operates, I could see that being used A LOT.

But even more interesting is that in his generic (and rather accurate) testing, he's shown that the IQ Tour 78U (which apparently is being marketed as a urethane ball) isn't urethane.

BL.

Strider

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #4 on: December 05, 2023, 10:56:00 AM »
His "shiny after polish = reactive" is anecdotal; hardly scientific. I think anything remotely modern labeled urethane is a blend. How much of each probably determines a lot of things - reaction shape, hardness changes, ease of polish... There have been tons of hybrids/blends over the years. Solid, pearl, particle/mica. Wasn't the Pure Hammer  years ago found out to be some type of blend?  I just think the Hammer purple pearl urethane found a blend that's mostly urethane but still shapes down lane. Of course the "best" ones got softer so they got even better over time. The early readability that big foot print soft urethane gives you combined with "more than pure urethane" down lane reaction is what they're trying to make now.

bradl

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #5 on: December 05, 2023, 05:24:46 PM »
His "shiny after polish = reactive" is anecdotal; hardly scientific. I think anything remotely modern labeled urethane is a blend. How much of each probably determines a lot of things - reaction shape, hardness changes, ease of polish... There have been tons of hybrids/blends over the years. Solid, pearl, particle/mica. Wasn't the Pure Hammer  years ago found out to be some type of blend?  I just think the Hammer purple pearl urethane found a blend that's mostly urethane but still shapes down lane. Of course the "best" ones got softer so they got even better over time. The early readability that big foot print soft urethane gives you combined with "more than pure urethane" down lane reaction is what they're trying to make now.

That's why he pulled out the Sumo and the Fab Black Hammer for comparison. Those were 80s made and around 78D. Same result: after polish, no shine.

Now that could easily be said differently about the Fab Pearl Hammers and the Pink Hammer, but those were different in pour altogether compared to today.

BL.

Strider

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #6 on: December 05, 2023, 08:14:57 PM »
I know he pulled out the old original urethane. I'm still saying it's anecdotal. It's not proof in and of itself. I still believe that all the new "urethane's" have different amount of minor additions, resin or otherwise, that get the reactions they want. Don't forget that he's a salesman first. His black, supposedly not a slip agent, mystery bottle turns a strong reactive ball into a urethane like reaction. Why struggle to find a good urethane ball when you can buy his stuff and turn and old reactive ball into exactly what you want for $20-30? I've also never had to move right (right handed) after one or two shots with the purple pearl urethane (reactive by his definition). Somehow he went from flush to a 3-5-6 or something similar after a shot or two.

bradl

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2023, 11:46:57 AM »
I know he pulled out the old original urethane. I'm still saying it's anecdotal. It's not proof in and of itself. I still believe that all the new "urethane's" have different amount of minor additions, resin or otherwise, that get the reactions they want. Don't forget that he's a salesman first. His black, supposedly not a slip agent, mystery bottle turns a strong reactive ball into a urethane like reaction. Why struggle to find a good urethane ball when you can buy his stuff and turn and old reactive ball into exactly what you want for $20-30? I've also never had to move right (right handed) after one or two shots with the purple pearl urethane (reactive by his definition). Somehow he went from flush to a 3-5-6 or something similar after a shot or two.

I am in no way doubting that he is a salesman and is doing this with the intention of having a product to sell. I completely and totally get that that black bottle and the sale of that bottle is his end goal. But that is rather independent of his simple test on what goes into urethane balls in comparison to those made back in the 80s and today, and the IQ Tour 78U may not be as completely urethane as being made out to be.

BL.

Strider

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #8 on: December 06, 2023, 03:54:57 PM »
I agree with that and and that was partly my point although I still stand by my statement that his polish test isn't scientific proof, even it seems to be on the right path. All of the recent high performance "urethane" balls can't be pure urethane. There's a reason people aren't using their old Blue Hammers. It would be interesting to soak one of them to the harness of the special Hammer purple pearls to see what effect (only) hardness has on the reaction. They even implied the Rubicon UC3 was basically urethane. Anyone who has seen or thrown one knows that's laughable.

Quote
Sometimes in the search to find the answer to modern day situations, you are forced to take a step or two backwards and investigate pre-existing alternative options that in the end, just may hold the answer to what you are in search of. Such is the case in the development and creation of our new Tour-ethane coverstock material. This material was derived as the result of this new direction of thinking and formulating. Our R&D Team followed the chemistry path of pure urethane from yesteryear in order to find the answer to the modern-day struggle in terms of excessive friction. Whether it is due to friction in the oil pattern, friction in the lane surface, or a combination of both. To that we say – Fear Friction No More!

Although they don't state it's pure urethane, they pretty much imply it.

This is what Hammer says about the purple pearl cover. I don't know if the language has changed since the original pour location to the green and now the purple pin.

Quote
Our Urethane cover is the main ingredient in this masterpiece. Unlike modern covers that produce a violent reaction at the breakpoint, this proven staple is all about giving the bowler ultimate control of the entire lane. We have developed the perfect pearlized, thick-shelled coverstock. Old school technology with new school hitting power. Because nothing hits like a Hammer.

They all play pretty fast and loose with their definitions of urethane. Balls like the purple pearl aren't urethane, they certainly aren't what we think of as reactive. They almost have to be some kind of blend. Maybe we should find some old Helix/Double Helix's and try to define them now!

bradl

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #9 on: December 06, 2023, 05:39:41 PM »
I agree with that and and that was partly my point although I still stand by my statement that his polish test isn't scientific proof, even it seems to be on the right path. All of the recent high performance "urethane" balls can't be pure urethane. There's a reason people aren't using their old Blue Hammers. It would be interesting to soak one of them to the harness of the special Hammer purple pearls to see what effect (only) hardness has on the reaction. They even implied the Rubicon UC3 was basically urethane. Anyone who has seen or thrown one knows that's laughable.

Quote
Sometimes in the search to find the answer to modern day situations, you are forced to take a step or two backwards and investigate pre-existing alternative options that in the end, just may hold the answer to what you are in search of. Such is the case in the development and creation of our new Tour-ethane coverstock material. This material was derived as the result of this new direction of thinking and formulating. Our R&D Team followed the chemistry path of pure urethane from yesteryear in order to find the answer to the modern-day struggle in terms of excessive friction. Whether it is due to friction in the oil pattern, friction in the lane surface, or a combination of both. To that we say – Fear Friction No More!

Although they don't state it's pure urethane, they pretty much imply it.

This is what Hammer says about the purple pearl cover. I don't know if the language has changed since the original pour location to the green and now the purple pin.

Quote
Our Urethane cover is the main ingredient in this masterpiece. Unlike modern covers that produce a violent reaction at the breakpoint, this proven staple is all about giving the bowler ultimate control of the entire lane. We have developed the perfect pearlized, thick-shelled coverstock. Old school technology with new school hitting power. Because nothing hits like a Hammer.

They all play pretty fast and loose with their definitions of urethane. Balls like the purple pearl aren't urethane, they certainly aren't what we think of as reactive. They almost have to be some kind of blend. Maybe we should find some old Helix/Double Helix's and try to define them now!

Soak a Faball to the Purple Pearl's softness and see how it goes.. That isn't a bad idea, and wonder if someone would be up to the test for that.. I'll even go the opposite way: Who owns the rights to the IP of the original Hammer core? If BoB owns that, could they not update that core, similar to what they did to Mo's core for the 3D Offset, and put a urethane cover on it with the same hardness of the Faball Hammers? If so, then that could be another tool up their sleeve for the Urethane market? I know some out there will say that they are simply copying what Storm has done in putting a harder urethane cover on the IQ Tour core..

It would give Hammer an option to work with; for we all know that the NU Blue Hammer is an attempt to troll the PBA with its hardness rule as well as get as close to the shape/reaction of the (Hopkinsville?) BoB Purple Hammer. But if they could go even further (backward?) and hearken back to the Faball days and do the same, they could be onto something..

BL.

TWOHAND834

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2023, 05:27:16 PM »
I know he pulled out the old original urethane. I'm still saying it's anecdotal. It's not proof in and of itself. I still believe that all the new "urethane's" have different amount of minor additions, resin or otherwise, that get the reactions they want. Don't forget that he's a salesman first. His black, supposedly not a slip agent, mystery bottle turns a strong reactive ball into a urethane like reaction. Why struggle to find a good urethane ball when you can buy his stuff and turn and old reactive ball into exactly what you want for $20-30? I've also never had to move right (right handed) after one or two shots with the purple pearl urethane (reactive by his definition). Somehow he went from flush to a 3-5-6 or something similar after a shot or two.

Anecdotal or not; this is something I have known since the early/mid 90s.  While stationed in the Army, I would frequent Jeff Bellinger's pro shop which was run at the time by Jerry Horn.  I had a test ball with no labels on it having been told it was a Nitro R/2.  When I took it to Jerry, the first thing he did was rubbed polish on it and said it is a way to test a ball to see if it is urethane or resin.  The ball happened to sheen up with some Finesse and elbow grease.  He did not even put it on the spinner.  As soon as he saw the ball sheen up he said this was how they could determine a urethane vs a resin.  What Hickland mentioned in his video was actually old news though not very many people have known about that "trick". 
Steven Vance
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bradl

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Re: Urethane Comparison Video
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2023, 05:32:52 PM »
I know he pulled out the old original urethane. I'm still saying it's anecdotal. It's not proof in and of itself. I still believe that all the new "urethane's" have different amount of minor additions, resin or otherwise, that get the reactions they want. Don't forget that he's a salesman first. His black, supposedly not a slip agent, mystery bottle turns a strong reactive ball into a urethane like reaction. Why struggle to find a good urethane ball when you can buy his stuff and turn and old reactive ball into exactly what you want for $20-30? I've also never had to move right (right handed) after one or two shots with the purple pearl urethane (reactive by his definition). Somehow he went from flush to a 3-5-6 or something similar after a shot or two.

Anecdotal or not; this is something I have known since the early/mid 90s.  While stationed in the Army, I would frequent Jeff Bellinger's pro shop which was run at the time by Jerry Horn.  I had a test ball with no labels on it having been told it was a Nitro R/2.  When I took it to Jerry, the first thing he did was rubbed polish on it and said it is a way to test a ball to see if it is urethane or resin.  The ball happened to sheen up with some Finesse and elbow grease.  He did not even put it on the spinner.  As soon as he saw the ball sheen up he said this was how they could determine a urethane vs a resin.  What Hickland mentioned in his video was actually old news though not very many people have known about that "trick".

I'd say less about what people have known, and more about what people have FORGOT. That's keeping in mind that most nowadays have never used urethane to know that, and those that have used urethane have been using resin for so long that they forgot about it (how to use it), let alone how to tell if a ball is urethane or not.

BL.