BallReviews

Equipment Boards => Brunswick => Topic started by: DON DRAPER on January 10, 2008, 03:01:54 PM

Title: avalanche series
Post by: DON DRAPER on January 10, 2008, 03:01:54 PM: i really never read the information on brunswicks website in too much detail about the avalanche series until lately. while skimming over the avalanche blue/silver pearl i noticed the comment made about "if your avalanche blue/silver pearl hooks too early it's at it's maximum length surface preparation. you will need to use a less aggressive ball to create more length". knowing most brunswick polished balls are wetsanded 400 grit before polishing it seems rather simple to sand the ball to a finer grit and then polish the ball if you want to add more length. brunswick goes into good detail about drilling patterns but only the bare basics on surface preparation. i can't speak for everyone else but i for one would like to see more detail on surface preparation on the website and the spec sheet that comes in the box with a new ball.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: YeahHossNV on January 11, 2008, 01:50:02 AM: honestly thats what I would make more sense. I think maybe Brunswick has to change their philosophy on grit before polish.

but also maybe the grit makes it maintain it's backend. Maybe increasing the surface grit would increase the length but reduce backend even more. without a thorough testing of the avalanche cover grits we will never know for sure.

Maybe even possibly the surface instructions are to prevent unexperienced buyers from taking the starting grit to high and complaining their ball never wrinkles.
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Edited on 1/11/2008 2:52 AM
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: charlest on January 11, 2008, 09:41:28 AM: Greg,

Could it be that the Avalanche pearl is sanded finer than the stock 400 grit, before polishing??

I did that to a Slay/R a while back. I got its maximum length at about 1200 grit + polish. When I sanded it to 2000 grit + polish, I got no more length.
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Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: BrunsNick on January 11, 2008, 01:10:19 PM: The Avalanche series is Brunswick's first offering at the mid-low price point. Anytime you can get a premium coverstock for less, everyone is happy.
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Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: crankncrash on January 11, 2008, 03:06:26 PM: cool rockin daddy,

Yes that core is old and so is the cover, but there is a reason they are still used all over ( not that EXACT core but you can find it through all sorts of lines). Just because its not new doesn't mean its no good.

Now let me pose this question to you, what kind of car do you drive? If you drive one, you have a piece of nearly 100 year old technology under the hood. Its pretty much the same thing you would find in a model A ford. True there are newer "performance" pieces IF you can drive them to their potential or afford them, but the old guys STILL do the job well. Now that said does any of this rambling matter? Nah, but I guess the point is, if its old its not bad in all cases.

As far as the ball being at its maximum length, I would guess its the abrasiveness of the polish making it at the longest the it can be. Think of it like this, if the polish is comparable, grit wise to a 1200 with something like a wax in there ( I know its not wax just hear what I'm saying) the grit brings anything above 1200 back down to it before shining the ball and brings anything else up to that grit. I don't know what the compound is in there, but I know it has grit to it and will make anything pretty glossy even with minimal polishing, so I'm lead to believe that there is something there that adds shine without grit... Anyway thats my .02
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: DON DRAPER on January 11, 2008, 05:05:06 PM: the surface of the avalanche is wetsanded 400 grit and then polished. if the surface was wetsanded say, 2,000 abralon and then polished, i would almost bet you would get at least 5 more feet in length----perhaps more.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: charlest on January 11, 2008, 05:20:43 PM: crankncrash wrote:
quote:
As far as the ball being at its maximum length, I would guess its the abrasiveness of the polish making it at the longest the it can be. Think of it like this, if the polish is comparable, grit wise to a 1200 with something like a wax in there ( I know its not wax just hear what I'm saying) the grit brings anything above 1200 back down to it before shining the ball and brings anything else up to that grit. I don't know what the compound is in there, but I know it has grit to it and will make anything pretty glossy even with minimal polishing, so I'm lead to believe that there is something there that adds shine without grit... Anyway thats my .02

While the above may be true with Rough Buff which has abrasives in it, it is not true for their High Gloss polish which has no abrasives in it.
That's why the finer you sand it before applying High Gloss, the longer the ball will go, UP to a point. As I said above, I reached that point, for some reason at the 1200 grit mark for the Slay/R. I have 2000 and 4000 grit sandpaper, but it seemed to make no difference for me and my Slay/R.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: crankncrash on January 11, 2008, 08:13:48 PM: There is no abrasive in the polish at all? I find it wierd, but who knows... not me obviously
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: BrunsBob on January 11, 2008, 09:00:56 PM: Greg, in the past we have introduced new performance balls with the cover prepped with the High Gloss factory finish, but it has become apparent that this low-friction polish can make a NIB ball under achieve in most bowlers hands. We would rather the consumer have too much hook and need to adjust it rather than too little hook to start with. Sure, the High Gloss gives a ball better shelf appeal, but we don't want another Radical Inferno on our hands. That ball was good, just not effective for the majority of bowlers when used right out of the box. We won't make that mistake again.

I can see myself taking the Avalanche Pearl to 4000 and then Rough Buff to make it a little straighter than it's out of box condition in order to seperate it's performance even more from the others. It's all about matching those surfaces up "after" seeing what the ball does.

Regards,

RoB LaW

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I'm gettin' old, I'm hurtin', but I've got Brunswick balls.......Color me competitive.

Edited on 1/11/2008 10:05 PM
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: MegaMav on January 11, 2008, 09:14:17 PM: quote:
Greg, in the past we have introduced new performance balls with the cover prepped with the High Gloss factory finish, but it has become apparent that this low-friction polish can make a NIB ball under achieve in most bowlers hands. We would rather the consumer have too much hook and need to adjust it rather than too little hook to start with. Sure, the High Gloss gives a ball better shelf appeal, but we don't want another Radical Inferno on our hands. That ball was good, just not effective for the majority of bowlers when used right out of the box. We won't make that mistake again.

I can see myself taking the Avalanche Pearl to 4000 and then Rough Buff to make it a little straighter than it's out of box condition in order to seperate it's performance even more from the others. It's all about matching those surfaces up "after" seeing what the ball does.

Regards,

RoB LaW

RL,

Have you guys thought about going back to your roots?
600 Grit + Rubbing Compound? (Green Scotch Brite + Rough Buff)
its been killer for me, and the Danger Zone at that surface keeps killing em'
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Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: BrunsBob on January 11, 2008, 09:23:00 PM: Mega, we try to come up with a surface that gives each ball its best performance under normal conditions....AND.....is also easy to duplicate from ball to ball. Technology now leans more towards the use of Abralon type pads over Scotch Brite type abbrassives, mainly because the finish has a much better appeal to it (less sanding marks). Both type abbrassives have their place, Abralons just make the ball look better on the shelf. Your working to keep a good surface on one ball that works for you. We have to try and create a surface that looks good and is easy to repeat on ball one off the production line and ball 1000 off of the line.

Regards,

RoB LaW

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I'm gettin' old, I'm hurtin', but I've got Brunswick balls.......Color me competitive.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: DON DRAPER on January 11, 2008, 09:41:01 PM: brunsbob, i understand what you are saying. there are times however when i see bowlers who are dissatisfied with a particular ball and are not willing to change the factory surface on a ball. many of these bowlers should know better. a little education thru trial and error is a wonderful thing----is it not ?
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: MegaMav on January 11, 2008, 09:42:33 PM: quote:
Mega, we try to come up with a surface that gives each ball its best performance under normal conditions....AND.....is also easy to duplicate from ball to ball. Technology now leans more towards the use of Abralon type pads over Scotch Brite type abbrassives, mainly because the finish has a much better appeal to it (less sanding marks). Both type abbrassives have their place, Abralons just make the ball look better on the shelf. Your working to keep a good surface on one ball that works for you. We have to try and create a surface that looks good and is easy to repeat on ball one off the production line and ball 1000 off of the line.

Regards,

RoB LaW

Thanks for the fast reply.
I've bought many Brunswick balls over the years, and whenever a surface doesnt matchup well for me, I default to 600 grit + Rough Buff. It seems to do the trick for ME at least, depending on the ball composition. I just wondering what has been talked about in meetings, if the revert back to that kind of surface matchup was discussed, considering some of the matchup complaints with the recent releases. It seems to date back to the Scorchin Inferno which was very surface heavy for most players on most conditions.

You answered my question, thanks for that.

Best of luck in this New Year,

Eric
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: BrunsBob on January 11, 2008, 09:58:55 PM: Greg, I think every shop should make an attempt to educate each customer about ball surface preperation and maintenance. An educated customer on average will spend more money, and usually feel comfortable letting you adjust a surface to match the ball up to their game. If a customer leaves the shop "expecting" the ball to do one thing and it doesn't, then you have an unhappy customer, until you convince them to let you alter the surface. Why not educate them up front before they get a bad taste in their mouth, many times not even giving the ball a chance, or even worse, thinking you sold them a dud, and even worse, telling others that you did.

Mega, we do in fact discuss every aspect of every ball during our meetings. We have to take into consideration what surface works best when matching cover to core on every ball, and where we want it to fit in our ball lineup. The 600 grit used in the past would have been done with abbrasives we no longer choose to use (at this moment). We can create the reactions now without having to sacrifice cosmetic appeal by using more modern abbrasive materials.

And by the way, don't think we don't recognize how good a customers to Brunswick you both are. Thanks for the support and patience over this past year and a half. We are making great strides and looking forward to a much better 2008.

Thanks again.

RoB LaW

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I'm gettin' old, I'm hurtin', but I've got Brunswick balls.......Color me competitive.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: DON DRAPER on January 11, 2008, 10:10:43 PM: brunsbob, i feel many full time pro shops do a good job trying to educate their customers in this regard. the problem is that there are too many part time pro shops who really don't know what they are doing.....literally. most of my education in surface preparation has come from trial and error. i've also read everything i can find on the subject. my pro shop operator thinks i'm a little anal when it comes to surfaces. he may be right but he also knows what i'm doing and why.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: BrunsBob on January 11, 2008, 10:21:06 PM: Illusion, they are on pace to ship the last week of this month. Yes, better late than never. Believe me, we wanted these things months ago. 2008 is gonna be so much better.

RoB LaW

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I'm gettin' old, I'm hurtin', but I've got Brunswick balls.......Color me competitive.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: BrunsBob on January 11, 2008, 10:25:32 PM: Greg, the more the part-timers fail to give their customers full service the less of them that will be around as technology keeps advancing. We at Brunswick still believe that coverstock is around 75% of a balls performance, so for a shop to ignore the importance of surface prep is beyond comprehension.
Yes, some customers go a little overboard sometimes, but I love the passion. That's a customer that loves the game and we need a LOT more of those.

RoB LaW

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I'm gettin' old, I'm hurtin', but I've got Brunswick balls.......Color me competitive.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: mumzie on January 11, 2008, 11:12:12 PM: As to the points made about old technology - I'll take on just about anyone on this site with a mid range PK18 ball. Everything the past couple of years that Brunswick has come out with has been way too much cover for my game. PK 18 has ALWAYS matched up perfectly for me.

I bowled the pro-am here in Medford wednesday night. I was fortunate enough to have Parker, followed by Mika, on our pair. They both agreed that the recent stuff was too much for me - and that I'd LOVE the Avalanche. I have to believe that they know what they're talking about.

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Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: DON DRAPER on January 11, 2008, 11:53:31 PM: i too love balls with the powrkoil 18 coverstock.....they seem to suit my game as well. however, there are times when newer stuff works better. for me it all depends on the amount of oil and/or carrydown that's there.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: lazyswimmer76 on January 12, 2008, 10:32:57 AM: The Avalanches will be very good. Unfortunately the majority of league bowlers now are page rippers that expect the ball to fly through the fronts, checkmark off the gutter and carry every time. Also they don't feel they should have to move their feet or eyes either.
Twisteds and Avalanches will be popular w/ tournament players because these two balls allow players to stay closer to friction. That is if you don't drill the nuts out of it. "I want the ball to skid/flip"--yeah like you need it. The patterns already skid/flip the ball for you.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: MegaMav on January 12, 2008, 11:46:57 AM: well said.
Title: Re: avalanche series
Post by: on January 12, 2008, 06:07:18 PM: The Blast Zone is a classic example of a ball with HUGE potential when the cover is matched up to the bowler and condition. Whenever I sell one I talk to the customer about the surface and all the options available so they aren't afraid to come back and have it adjusted if needed.

I, too, am excited to see the Avalanches hit the shelves of our shop. We should be able to sell the crap out of them.

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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff