Post by: Strider on July 19, 2007, 03:53:10 AM
Brunswick claims that ball color has an effect on reaction, since they claim a Strike Zone and a Red Zone with the same cover prep will behave differently. I'm not trying to argue that one way or the other. In the days of plastic, different White Dots did behave differently. I wouldn't doubt color still has some impact, but my guess is that it would be very minor.
My question (more to the Brunswick reps) is: Does color have a bigger impact than CG placement on a symmetric ball?
I think Brunswick puts the CG's value at 4-5% of ball reaction (or was that the weight hole with the CG's value being less?). If you had to put a number on it, how important is color? Other than plastic and some entry level resins (Power Grooves and Tropical Storms for example), you usually don't get the option of different colors of the same ball. Occasionally, something like the Red/Strike Zone or Wizard/Nemesis comes up. If two of the "same" ball were available at the same time, would you be more inclined to pick a color for a certain reaction, or more worry about the CG placement of the ball you drilled?
I really don't want 100 guesses from the uninformed. Please only reply if you have some knowledge of the subject.
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Post by: Joe Jr on July 19, 2007, 11:59:33 AM
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Post by: triggerman on July 19, 2007, 12:31:53 PM
color is related to reaction to the dry
where as cg/statics are related to motion of the core
In my personal experience, lightly colored balls have been more snappish, longer then darker colored ones. prime example is the power grooves by big b, for the most part the yellow/chrome is the most angular of the bunch whereas the bluish ones tend to be more mellow (reaction to the dry)
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Post by: triggerman on July 19, 2007, 01:25:17 PM
quote:
The only responce is
"Beating a dead horse..."
-Chris
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what exactly does that mean Chris?
someone asked a question concerning the two, a legitimate question. I have spoken at lenght with Tom Tomaras at big b concerning color and the reaction of balls. his words were color played a part in reaction to the dry
statics have an effect on the ball, how much or how little is up for debate, with the amount of oil, the release of the bowler, the bowlers speed and the positioning of that static weight having effects on end result. everyone wants to look at the word "static" which means it doesnt move, but once that ball is put into motion the "statics" can have a dynamic effect on the rolling mass, depending on ball speed, bowlers release, and amount of friction on the lane, then factor in thumb/finger weight, with those other factors and you can see sometimes dramatic effects in movement, moreso in pancake blocked balls, but cad analyisis can and do show the effects of the offset of that side wieght north or south of ones grip center, that coupled with a bowlers axis tilt can move things around, finger/thumb/side wieghts are all measured on the outer portion of the ball. are those effects visible at 18 mph? prolly not, are they visible at 10 mph, probably so
your better they thou, sticking your nose in a conversation where you choose to not add anything constuctive is disheartening, sure it may be a dead horse to you, but to the poster of the topic it is not. My personal opinion, if you cant add anything one way or the other, quit being a post whore and bite your tongue
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Post by: mrbowlingnut on July 19, 2007, 01:41:23 PM
I have been told the same thing by pro shop operator's that are on Ebonite and Storm staffs, so it is pretty widely known in the business.
Maybe Lane 1 should release a Hot Pink Super Carbide Bomb
Or a neon green Nv series ball to prove the theory wrong.
Post by: zone72 on July 19, 2007, 01:52:39 PM
ball's reaction.
First of all, I'm not in USA so i can get the Intl release. Start from the
Red Alert 300-light grey color (ZC intl ver.), we find the reaction of the ball is diferent from the original one. The RA 300 is skid than the ZC. After that
RA 900 (UI intl ver.) also. Than the Hyper Zone-S (OI intl ver.), RA Flash (SZ intl ver.) All the above got the differnt reaction with original with same layout.
Most of the intl release is great, but compare with the original, we all think
the original is a little bit better than the Intl release. The different between the Original and the Intl is Color only.
BTW, we will have another Intl release in Sep-the Prime Zone, a AI intl ver.
I saw a guy use the Prime Zone (a sample from Big B) and he said it is a great
ball same as the AI. Pls note that the Prime Zone is same color with the AI.
Post by: DanH78 on July 19, 2007, 02:01:48 PM
quote:
I believe that darker pigments do hook more, if you notice almost every large hooking ball is a dark blue,purple or black color. One of the few balls that is large hooking and light in color was the Vicious Particle the puke green one.
I have been told the same thing by pro shop operator's that are on Ebonite and Storm staffs, so it is pretty widely known in the business.
Maybe Lane 1 should release a Hot Pink Super Carbide Bomb
What about the older balls? The Teal Rhino Pro and Gold Rhino were hook monsters compared to the Purple Rhino. The first 3-D was a pretty big hooking ball (not the most hook at the time, but it certainly wasn't a dry lane ball)
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How about a Fresca?
Post by: mrbowlingnut on July 19, 2007, 02:12:34 PM
Maybe because the new bowlers like the vibrant colors or maybe because the light pigments just hook less. I did not bowl before 1998 so for me to comment on old stuff would not be a good choice, this is my opinion nothing more.
Post by: DanH78 on July 19, 2007, 02:37:59 PM
quote:
I never said all balls but if this was not true why is almost every big oiler is dark in color??? There has been some lighter color big hooking balls like the one and absolute infeno come to mind, i notice the ball companies use the more vibrant colors on low end stuff like a Tropical Storm ball.
Maybe because the new bowlers like the vibrant colors or maybe because the light pigments just hook less. I did not bowl before 1998 so for me to comment on old stuff would not be a good choice, this is my opinion nothing more.
Not trying to give you a hard time, I've never heard nor thought about color when it comes to hook potential.
I wonder if there's a natural property in the darker color pigments that lend to hook potential or if there is something psychological therefore the companies make the darker balls hook more???
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How about a Fresca?
Post by: Strider on July 20, 2007, 09:17:31 AM
Color used to have some impact, but I would think it would be waaaaaaaaaaaaaaaayyyy down the list of priorities on modern equipment that I'm surprised that Brunswick would even mention it.
For Chris: It's not a dead subject. This isn't another CG discussion topic. Brunswick mentioned the relevance of color and I'm curious to see it's importance.
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Post by: triggerman on July 20, 2007, 10:07:57 AM
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Post by: kmanestor22 on July 20, 2007, 12:56:42 PM
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Post by: charlest on July 20, 2007, 01:02:08 PM
quote:
If the pigment alters the properties of the coverstock that much, then they should consider every different color of the same coverstock a seperate entity. Dark blue Activator is different from red Activator and such. I just don't understand why they would add something to the cover that would change its properties. Seems like with all the years of experience and all the technology available, they would have solved this problem long ago.
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because people are already confused enough as it is?
Because people still think every ball is the same and and the only way to get a different reaction is to drill them differently?
Because the generic (200 avg)bowler is a blithering moron? (or is that too truthful or too harsh; can't be sure anymore)
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Post by: kmanestor22 on July 20, 2007, 01:11:08 PM
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Post by: BrunsNick on July 20, 2007, 03:17:13 PM
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Post by: triggerman on July 20, 2007, 03:20:29 PM
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Post by: Jesse James on July 20, 2007, 03:41:42 PM
I believe we had a long dissertation/thread on this topic in 2003.....and by majority....all agreed that color most definitely plays a role in a ball's overall reaction.
Back then, some of the balls being mentioned for comparison were Lane#1 bullet,
Battlezone Bullet, various Messengers, Pirahnas, Orange Warlocks and the like.
Yeah....this is a valid question.....with a proven answer.
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Post by: BrunsNick on July 20, 2007, 03:49:20 PM
quote:
me thinks nick is being silly
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Not this time!
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Post by: triggerman on July 20, 2007, 03:55:03 PM
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Post by: BrunsNick on July 20, 2007, 04:06:43 PM
Just think if the original Inferno was a turd, would anyone buy another Inferno release!?
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Post by: DP3 on July 20, 2007, 05:12:47 PM
quote:
For what it's worth, lighter dyes in color pours have been known for years to respond a little faster to friction. I'm no chemist or physicist, but I'd assume some sort of molecular bond that lighter colors combined with resin cure in a different way.
Remember the Pearl Ti-Messengers? There was an original Black/Gold one and about 2 years later they released "The Same ball" in a light blue/silver/purple pearl combo. The B/S/P was noticably more angular and seemed a bit sharper than the Black/Gold even though they were the same cover/core combo. Columbia had to even adjust the length/hook ratings on them while they were in production to reflect the difference because they did not see them being so noticably different until they were already out on the market.
My guess is the same occurance in the Red Zones, combined with the Red Zones being poured in a new casting machine which makes for a more aggressive version of a Strike Zone at different finishes. The Strike Zone polished is alot smoother and rollier than a polished Red Zone(you can really notice the difference with a high pin placement, Red Zone jerks off the spot ALOT harder). And sanded at the same finish the Red Zone is noticably more aggressive in it's move.
I think it'd take a chemist to give us the exact explaination why this happens in colors, but that's also notable that when you see most oilers they are darker in color and most true skid-flip balls are brighter/lighter in color. The companies already know this.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Edited on 7/19/2007 10:07 AM
Edited on 7/19/2007 10:08 AM
-from the b. stard child thread that lead to this.
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Edited on 7/20/2007 5:13 PM
Post by: Strider on July 21, 2007, 08:17:32 AM
Is that your information, or did that come from Brunswick or some other source?
I know color can influence the reaction to some extent; I just want to know how much of a difference it could be.
I still want to see someone from Brunswick provide some input. I've seen Ric Hamlin post a few times since this started, but maybe he hasn't seen it. I find it interesting that they will contribute reaction differences to color, but see little if any when moving the CG around (without needing a weight hole). Again, I'm not trying to rehash the CG debate, I just wanted to know if they thought that color made a bigger difference than CG location on a symmetric ball. I'm not planning on debating any answer I get, I'm just curious to see what is said.
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Post by: DP3 on July 21, 2007, 10:22:04 AM
It is too often we as a community find out about something then automatically try to assess a percentage of influence on the matter instead of just throwing the ball and reading it's reaction. It's not that big of a deal. The game is very simple and 99% of the time we are all guilty of overcomplicating the smallest things.
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...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop
Post by: Strider on July 21, 2007, 12:07:39 PM
Actually, there are a few instances where color could be a choice to go along with drilling options or expected reactions. There have been several recent Brunswick balls that have been re-released with different colors. The original Inferno/PBA Inferno, Wizard/Nemesis, Red Zone/Strike Zone, and maybe a few others.
I guess what I was curious about is whether you would choose a color that might give you a more angular reaction (for example) before you chose a drilling? From your example, it looks like a Strike Zone with a more flippy drilling might be the same as a Red Zone with more arcy drilling, assuming same cover prep? From your description, if you want a little more flip and recovery, a Red Zone with just about any normal drilling might be a little better choice than a Strike Zone with a flippy drilling?
Like you said, there aren't many cases where it's even an issue and like DP3 said there are tons of more important variables, but it's just something I thought was interesting.
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Post by: crankncrash on July 21, 2007, 10:44:25 PM
So my educated guess here is that color doesn't "Really" afect the bal reaction, but its pereceived reaction.
Post by: JBracer2 on July 21, 2007, 11:11:31 PM
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Edited on 7/22/2007 11:34 AM
Post by: kmanestor22 on July 22, 2007, 04:00:09 PM
quote:
Since I have been requested or 'called' out, for a better way of putting it, on this subject or topic, I will give my professional opinion. I say opinion because much of what we believe, is perceived and will more than likely be scrutinized. There is no data or test results. Merely a few years worth of trial and error.
If you go back as far as polyester, color did make a different in perceived reaction characteristics. Also there was less variables in the buildup of the coverstocks. I also say perceived, because much of what we thought or saw, was visual. Early urethanes lended the same thought process.
My mindset on this subject is simple. When you start with certain base variables in the make-up of the coverstock, the color is one to go along with many other materials, such as the polymers and additives. If you change one, it generally, in a physical sense, has to change the final product or result.We see this in test samples to production releases. Most, if not all test balls, have no color.
Another variable is perceived reaction or motion. You can have 2 bowling balls that are exactly the same, except for color and if one is darker, it will give the perception of being more angular.
Comparing the Strike and Red Zone, the production surfaces are different, obviously. I have done one test, when the Red Zone first came out, with one of our amateur staffers, rev rate 350-375, speed 15-16 MPH and rotation of approx 45 degrees. We had both with the same layout. We took the Red Zone and placed it on a Haus resurfacer and knocked all of the polish off using a burgundy Scotch pad. The Strike Zone was then placed on the Haus using a new piece of burgundy Scotch pad as well, so both surfaces were comparable. On the lanes the reaction was noticeably different. The Red Zone still had more recovery where the Strike Zone was smoother.
Then the surfaces were smoothed up and as they got higher (1000-2000-4000), the Red Zone became slightly more angular. It was approx 2-3 boards stronger, mostly in the late midlane to back part of the lane. We used a fresh pair and a pair that had been bowled on or broken down.
How much does it truly affect and enhance ball reaction? Unless you take 2 bowling balls that are exactly the same in composition, except for color, you really will not know. The issue or problem with that, there are very few choices to test.
Also in comparing color to CG's or static weights, in percentage, you really can't. It's not like layout choices or options. You have a ball, that is a certain color and that is it. You can't go get another Total Inferno or Fury, in another color, because you have better luck with a solid blue or yellow and black swirled cover. You can use a layout or static weight combination in any type of bowling ball, as well as altering with surface and weight holes. You can't change the color. So I do not think it can be considered a perceived percentage.
It goes back to my contention, in regards to CG placement or static weights...if you feel you have success with certain variables, whether perceived or otherwise, then stick with it or continue to use it. I do not argue that it is wrong or should not be done. I have given certain beliefs, that I know to work and I use these when making a decision.
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Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling
AKA "Rico" and L.I.M.O.M.
Edited on 7/21/2007 11:44 AM
Your logic in proving pigment makes a difference in the same logic most use when stating cg placement makes a difference
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