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Author Topic: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??  (Read 7034 times)

BeansProShop

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Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« on: August 17, 2008, 10:36:07 AM »
I am curious to hear everyones thoughts. I have a customer that has a 5.25" span and his ball is grossly undersized. He thinks it feels really different in his hand. Does anyone agree this is possible??  Also, One of the best bowlers in the 90's Mike Neumann told me once that he sands the labels off balls to make them slightly smaller because smaller orbs spin faster and helps control backend reaction. Does anyone agree or believe in this???

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khamûl

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #1 on: August 17, 2008, 07:50:40 PM »
RH @ ebonite did a blind study with some staff members, he published results in Ebonites Pro Shop Rag a couple of years back...

cliffs notes...

Tested v2s at three different diameters, looking for difference in reaction on a cats lane and also ran the balls on a rg swing to check specs...

All five testers (and cats) saw earlier revs and more angular backend move from the smaller balls.  This makes sense since they also tested higher for rgDiff and lower for average Rg.

Regarding MN, usbc now frowns upon balls without identifying marks, I think.

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InternationalBowler

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #2 on: August 18, 2008, 12:54:08 AM »
Here's the complete article: http://www.ebonite.com/techcenter/RandD_detail.php?PRKey=263

At a seminar back in 05 I asked the Brunswick tech team a question about ball size and grip feel. They said there wouldn't be any differnce in grip feel even with different size balls. The reason I asked was because I've found the balls that have a bigger gap between the quaterscale and the surface when weighing them, generally feel a little better in my hand. I have numerous times messured my balls because one feels different than the other witout being able to messure any difference other than the gap.

Some time later I read this article and everything made more sense to me

So now I think size matters

khamûl

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #3 on: August 18, 2008, 09:36:30 PM »
the article seems shorter than I remember...

...good ole ebojunk.

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BeansProShop

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #4 on: August 22, 2008, 08:51:39 PM »
Well to actually explain why I asked this question is because my customer bought an Avalanche Pearl and it was drilled by Chris M and the customer just didn't like the feel or reaction of the ball. This bowler bowls for Saginaw Valley State and has been on the A squad so he is pretty decent. Anyways... He sold the ball to another of my customers with a 5.25" span so I plugged the ball and redrilled it. I have an Innovative Vaccu Jig and the ball would not suck down. I have about 1 in 250 balls not suck down in this press. Anyways...I safety clamped the ball down and drilled it. It measures perfect and he said it feels short. I measured it again and it was right on. Anyways again...I put my Pro-Sect on the ball and there was a 3/16th gap between the ball and the Pro-Sect. I put the Pro-Sect on a Columbia (old and new),Ebonite,Lane#1 and a twice resurfaced AMF ball and they were all tight between the Pro Sect and the ball. The Avalanche Pearl was grossly undersized.

Well being in business myself in many different fields I know these things can happen. Sooooo...... I had Chris M call a Brunswick rep to see if they would replace the ball and he told him that there is no way he could feel a difference in span on an undersized ball and that he has been doing this for 25+ years and yadda yadda yadda.... Thus he told Chris he would not replace the ball because 5 out of every 100 balls they manufacture are undersized and it doesn't matter. He then went on to say that EVERY company has the same 5 out of 100 balls undersized...

HE MAY BE RIGHT!!!!

But any undersized ball I ever seen this bad had a BONANZA label on it and I paid $17 for.

It is bad enough that he admitted to Chris that Big B regularly sends out grossly undersized balls as first quality but then would do nothing about an un-pleased customer.

This just baffles me...
When and why has Brunswick's customer service and production become so shotty and poor???
I have decided not to stock ANY Brunswick balls in my shop after this. I will order for customers that want them because that is GOOD customer service but I will NEVER again stock any current line balls from Big B again!!!

Disclaimer:
This is in no way a blind bash of Brunswick so save the retaliation posts... Most people know I am a Lane#1 staff member and may think this is just a low life post to bash Big B. This is business and I would have posted it no matter what other company it was that would treat a customer like this. INCLUDING Lane#1 if they ever did it to me....

Doesn't make sense.. I sell at least 100 Big B balls a year and this particular customer is a 8-12 ball /yr guy.  Mostly Brunswick...

All these sales are lost from poor customer service and manufacturing.

Too bad.....I guess.

Beans
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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Langadoo

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #5 on: August 22, 2008, 09:52:28 PM »
Alot of the 15lb 12,13,14,15oz balls are undersized.  I've noticed this on a couple Avalanches and an Ultra zone ive drilled.
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BeansProShop

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #6 on: August 22, 2008, 09:56:00 PM »
The Avalanche Pearl was 15 lb. 1 oz. before drilling.

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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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BrunsNick

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #7 on: August 24, 2008, 03:52:49 AM »
Yeah I've never seen any undersized 1st runs of any other companies!

on edit: why didn't Chris just intentionally crack the ball like he said he does a few months ago? What was it again... freezer method?

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Edited on 8/24/2008 3:55 AM
Nick Smith
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Lillen

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #8 on: August 24, 2008, 06:47:57 AM »
Quote
I put my Pro-Sect on the ball and there was a 3/16th gap between the ball and the Pro-Sect.
Quote



I recently got a L/LM AP2 from a friend and did the same test..

The ball was undersized

It has never been sanded or put in a Haus-machine etc...

The proshop where I get my balls and stuff has a few undersized Columbia Hyde's in the back of the shop...


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Edited on 8/24/2008 6:49 AM

BeansProShop

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #9 on: August 24, 2008, 04:03:02 PM »
Like I said Nick...
Not looking to stir up trouble here..
Business is business....

If Chris freezes balls and smashes them than that is his mistake. At least he doesn't film it to try to get a few comments thrown his way. Your precious company dropped the "small" ball and that is it... Now back to the point at hand..

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It isn't so much the undersized ball that makes this a major problem...

It is the customer service that was received that makes it a problem.

I have never seen a ball THIS undersized....EVER!!!

I had undersized balls from Columbia and Chad Murphy promptly took care of them.
Same with Ebonite and Brian Purcell back when he was the brand manager.

99% of the undersized balls I have come across were mid weight blems. The few that slipped through were quickly replaced by their respective salesmen.

My question is???

Why were we fed such bull excuses from such a high ranking employee of a major ball company???

The ball was grossly undersized. Just replace it!!
What was the big deal??  Companies hand balls out for free and comp balls daily. Many to people that just resell them instead of drilling them. Why not stand by your product for a PAYING customer???

That is the point here!!!

Beans
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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pro shop guy

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #10 on: August 24, 2008, 04:31:56 PM »
I had drilled some older AZO's that when I put the prosect on them....it would slide right off, definately undersized. I had 1 myself....felt like I could rip the cover off it....just felt like a marble in my hand. Said to have a higher carry %......I never could notice much carry difference, but I did notice how different it felt on my hand.

LuvThatWhiteDot

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #11 on: August 24, 2008, 08:38:43 PM »
Can I ask a question as someone who's totally uneducated on this?  How is a ball "undersized" to begin with?  I thought the rule book said they're 27" in circumference, so how does a ball come out of the factory undersized?  Is it in the actual manufacturing process, like a crappy pour from the mold or something like that?

::adjusts Dunce cap::

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BeansProShop

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #12 on: August 24, 2008, 11:38:31 PM »
Ric,

PM sent!!
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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Looking for a great place to sell your bowling equipment?? Auction style,Fixed Price and FREE For A Limited Time! Try www.bestintheworldauctions.com and to Purchase The "Secret Sauce" visit www.beansproshop.com
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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BeansProShop

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #13 on: August 25, 2008, 12:35:32 PM »
You are certainly credible enough to make that comment Prince...

Beans
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Lane#1 Ball Drilling Expert
 Check out current eBay auctions at:
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Looking for a great place to sell your bowling equipment?? Auction style,Fixed Price and FREE For A Limited Time! Try www.bestintheworldauctions.com and to Purchase The "Secret Sauce" visit www.beansproshop.com
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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BeansProShop

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Re: Does an undersized ball feel and react different??
« Reply #14 on: August 26, 2008, 04:04:20 AM »
Ask Norm Duke if he can feel the difference. That man can feel 1/16th of inch pitch variances. Was told this directly by John Gaines who drilled for him when they were with Hammer at a ball test. He was also able to guess within an 1/8th ounce of how much side weight the balls had without any prior knowledge.

Amazing!!!

As far as I'm concerned with your comments ClownedPrince.....I'm not!!!

That is a lot of balls to own to average 161 in leagues. I would save your money and just use one. You can drill any ball to average 161. Try some lessons instead of buying balls.

Beans
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Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
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Edited on 8/26/2008 4:07 AM
Looking for a great place to sell your bowling equipment?? Auction style,Fixed Price and FREE For A Limited Time! Try www.bestintheworldauctions.com and to Purchase The "Secret Sauce" visit www.beansproshop.com
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