BallReviews

Equipment Boards => Brunswick => Topic started by: dumbcomputers on June 29, 2008, 07:18:51 AM

Title: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on June 29, 2008, 07:18:51 AM
I drilled up a new Ultra Zone this week and something is seriously wrong with it. I drilled it with the #2 drill on the Brunswick drill sheet (5 1/2 from PAP MB @ 45). It doesn't flare at all and worst it starts rolling on my thumbhole half way down the lane like it's flaring in reverse!!! The only thing strange about this ball is the location of the CG but my driller said it was under 1 oz side weight after drilling as it didn't have a huge amount of top weight. This ball does not hook at all. I threw it today back to back against a Cherry Vibe drilled 5 1/2" to PAP pin up and the Vibe hooked about 10-13 boards while the Ultra did nothing. Is it possible it's defective somehow???

The pro shop is closed till July 7th but I wanted to get some feedback before talking to the driller. Thx.

BTW: my PAP is 4 1/4 and 15/16" up, 16-17 MPH, 250-275 RPM, 15 degrees tilt.



http://members.cox.net/dumbcomputers/Pics/UZ.jpg

Edited on 6/29/2008 3:23 PM
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on June 29, 2008, 04:25:40 PM
Does this help?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vEWkWitQAcQ

Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on June 29, 2008, 04:38:21 PM
OK, maybe I was exaggerating about the Vibe. I guess my point was that the Vibe made a noticeable move to the pocket where as the Ultra had absolutely no move and no flare (maybe even reverse). Even if the lanes were toast I would expect to see the ball flare in the right direction. The lanes weren't slick but it did have some oil on it.
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: luv2C10falll on June 29, 2008, 08:27:43 PM
While your here Ric
Whats the differance between rolls with pin near pap,versus pin near track.Anything other than one rolls early an one doesnt.I hope that didnt sound stupid
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"I hate losing more than I love winning"
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on June 29, 2008, 08:35:26 PM
Thanks Chris, you summed up my style pretty accurately. That was a pretty old video, here's one which is a bit more recent.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YUKeY_NubFM

I purchased the Ultra knowing it was a rather rolley ball and was what I was looking for to handle the carrydown I typically see. The ironic thing is I don't see any roll on this ball. It goes down the lane, does not flare, and does not make any change of direction. It's almost like the core dynamics are working against the ball making it go straight, if that is possible. I'm baffled by it.
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on June 29, 2008, 08:45:12 PM
Thanks Rico, I have thought of this being the problem. The thing that doesn't make sense to me is that my Vibe is laid out with a similar 5 1/2" PIN to PAP and I don't have any trouble with flare on that ball and it never inverts the wrong direction. I realize that I'm comparing a symmetrical ball to an asymmetrical one but do you see why I'm baffled?  

quote:
First of all, as always thanks for the inciteful response Chris.

As far as little or no flare, this tells me you have the primary pin to close to your track. When you get the pin that close to either your PAP or track, it will pull that way, which can cause it to invert or minimize flare.

I would suggest placing a piece of tape on what you think your PAP is and see how close it is. If it is off, then adjust until it is on your release flare. This will help in regards to the layout.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling

www.BrunswickBowling.com
www.DBKMiniCamp.com

"A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole is a danish."
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: luv2C10falll on June 29, 2008, 09:43:49 PM
Thanks for the info again Ric
--------------------
"I hate losing more than I love winning"
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: Dyno-Joe on June 29, 2008, 09:48:53 PM
My take of this is that you just got a bad core in the ball. It happens, rarely but it happens. I am not saying anything against Brusnwick equipment, but maybe something wasn't right with the core and they did not catch it. I personally LOVE this ball. I hope you get everything fixed away for you to throw this great release.
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on June 29, 2008, 10:36:06 PM
Are you looking at the Ultra Zone drill sheet???

http://members.cox.net/dumbcomputers/Pics/num_2.jpg
http://members.cox.net/dumbcomputers/Pics/Zone-Ultra.pdf


Please note my PAP is 4 1/4 over so the PIN will be a little bit left of what the diagram states.

quote:
I have my layout sheet and that doesnt look like a #2 layout. I agree with others, the core aint the problem, Is this a new driller or have you use this guy before,


Edited on 6/29/2008 11:09 PM

Edited on 6/29/2008 11:13 PM
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: bowlingmytmouse on June 30, 2008, 06:29:40 AM
It is topics like these that keep me frequenting the forums!!! LOL

BMM
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Roto Grip forever!!!! What else is there??


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Hoss Central Inc.
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: BallReviews-TECH on June 30, 2008, 09:06:03 AM
Let's keep discussion on-topic please.
-BR-Tech
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: Moe on June 30, 2008, 12:07:04 PM
Prob have the pin to close to the PAP, as suggested you may want to check the pap again, because it could be that you have migrated it up. Maybe you are staying more behind the ball now as opposed to spinning it. There is also a topic in the drilling & layout section that answers the question you asked, pin to pap/pin to track locations and its effect on ball reaction.

FWIW my ultra is a beast, i love it, the hybrid enmotion floats through the heads, the core revs up hard in the mids and it has a nice pop on the back end. Much more controllable for me than my twisted i see to much angle with my twisted at times. Great for opening the lane up and swinging, the twisted.  Of all my equipment the ultra is the easiest to read.
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AIM = y2moe99
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: baer300 on June 30, 2008, 01:02:10 PM
Chris, You keep coming on here and bashing the Blast and Ultra Zone core. Maybe you don't like them but i can guarantee that many others do. I for one love them both. Can't throw my Blast to often b/c it is too strong and it never quits. Same goes for my Ultra, oh by the way both balls are pin down. I am also a very high rev bowler and neither ball quits or is to rolly for me. Now I don't know you or anything about you, but you do talk alot of smack. Frankly, I don't care either, but sometimes it gets a little old to hear you always tlaking smack.

But back to the topic, I also agree with the pin being to close to your PAP.
--------------------
BRUNSWICK ADVISORY STAFF
VISE REGIONAL STAFF
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: johns811 on June 30, 2008, 07:11:31 PM
I had the black particle power groove rolled really bizarre. It tracked about 2" higher then normal and I think it flared the wrong way also over the holes. The pin is next to ring. I have many balls drilled that way and this is the only one that rolled that.

A brunswick rep on this site saw my post and replaced the ball.
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on July 02, 2008, 12:31:41 AM
I've done the tape technique many many times. PAP always measures between 4 1/4"-4 1/2" over and 3/4"-1" up.

I am not a tour professional or really that good of a bowler to be honest with you. All I know is I drilled it per one of the recommendations on the Brunswick drill sheet and it doesn't roll right. I doubt if Brunswick will offer any replacement.

quote:
First of all, as always thanks for the inciteful response Chris.

As far as little or no flare, this tells me you have the primary pin to close to your track. When you get the pin that close to either your PAP or track, it will pull that way, which can cause it to invert or minimize flare.

I would suggest placing a piece of tape on what you think your PAP is and see how close it is. If it is off, then adjust until it is on your release flare. This will help in regards to the layout.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling

www.BrunswickBowling.com
www.DBKMiniCamp.com

"A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole is a danish."


Edited on 7/2/2008 0:44 AM
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on July 02, 2008, 10:37:02 AM
Thank you Chris, you make my thread a little more interesting than it really is

- No, I'm not going to crack the ball. I don't think Brunswick did anything intentionally.
- Yes, it is frustrating.
- I drilled 5 balls this year, this was the only one that gave me any problems. The others were TNV, NM Beat'N, Cherry Vibe, Smokin' Inferno (*which I love), and UZ.
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: JohnP on July 02, 2008, 10:42:08 AM
Have you tried surface changes?  --  JohnP
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: JMORRIS on July 02, 2008, 11:13:34 AM
I don't think the ball is defective.

I'm sure your driller will add a hole to try and tune the ball reaction.  If that won't work maybe he'll plug and redrill or replace the ball for you.

That is the benefit to buying the ball from a proshop, although summer hours usually are slim to none for a lot of shops.

Jermey
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For sale:  http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=200647&ForumID=107&CategoryID=12
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: BallReviews-TECH on July 02, 2008, 04:15:48 PM
Ok, so asking you guys to keep stuff on topic isn't working so whoever continues off-topic past here will be facing a one week timeout from posting.

-BR-Tech
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: dumbcomputers on July 02, 2008, 05:05:40 PM
I highly doubt that adding weight hole will improve it if it's flaring backwards. If anything it's going to make it worst or zero out all core dynamics altogether. It's not like the ball is reacting badly to a lane condition it is not reacting PROPERLY to any lane condition.

On a side note, Rico did get me in touch with Brunswick customer support and they have been very helpful so far and willing to work with me on the situation. So far I have not lost faith in Brunswick whatsoever.



quote:
I don't think the ball is defective.

I'm sure your driller will add a hole to try and tune the ball reaction.  If that won't work maybe he'll plug and redrill or replace the ball for you.

That is the benefit to buying the ball from a proshop, although summer hours usually are slim to none for a lot of shops.

Jermey
--------------------
For sale:  http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=200647&ForumID=107&CategoryID=12
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: RealBowler on July 02, 2008, 06:21:45 PM
quote:
Chris, at what point do you not generalize? Merely because you have a problem with a bowling ball does not mean EVERYONE does. Just like the Brunswick employee that chooses to be anonymous, huh?

So, because you do not know how to layout a bowling ball properly, do not blame the core. Brunswick, unlike other ball companies, utilize more than one core shape, which I can see can cause an issue for you.

The Ultra Zone is the most versatile, along with the Twisted Fury, bowling ball in Brunswick's line up. For those qualified to realize that.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling

www.BrunswickBowling.com
www.DBKMiniCamp.com

"A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole is a danish."


Wow.  Perhaps I missed the point where Chris turned this into a personal attack, because surely a highly respected representative of one of the top bowling companies would never launch a personal attack without being provoked.
--------------------
Haywood

**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
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Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: RealBowler on July 02, 2008, 06:44:28 PM
quote:
There were a few posts deleted.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling

www.BrunswickBowling.com
www.DBKMiniCamp.com

"A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole is a danish."



That figures.  Some of the stuff didn't look right.  It's always funny to see the stuff between you guys and the Beans crew, and that's not an attack of any sort to either of you, just a personal observation.

Back on topic (so as to not get a suspension), I'm going to assume that you are using the ball on the correct conditions?  Was the ball checked prior to drilling to verify CG, top, MB, etc?

I think the Ultra Zone looks like a great ball.  Might be the ball that brings me back to Brunswick.
--------------------
Haywood

**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************
Title: Re: HELP Rico & Nick.
Post by: Juggernaut on July 02, 2008, 07:05:20 PM
quote:
quote:
There were a few posts deleted.
--------------------
Ric Hamlin
Pacific Northwest Product Specialist
Brunswick Bowling

www.BrunswickBowling.com
www.DBKMiniCamp.com

"A flute with no holes is not a flute. A donut with no hole is a danish."



That figures.  Some of the stuff didn't look right.  It's always funny to see the stuff between you guys and the Beans crew, and that's not an attack of any sort to either of you, just a personal observation.

Back on topic (so as to not get a suspension), I'm going to assume that you are using the ball on the correct conditions?  Was the ball checked prior to drilling to verify CG, top, MB, etc?

I think the Ultra Zone looks like a great ball.  Might be the ball that brings me back to Brunswick.
--------------------
Haywood

**************************
I don't need a stupid
signature. This is enough.
**************************


  Not to beat a dead horse, but remember, Brunswick is the CGNOMADDAH crowd, so the placement of the cg surely cannot be the problem, as long as the riser pin and the mass biass are in the correct orientation.  The cg would only serve to dictate the placement of an x-hole, if needed.

  Given that, it is possible to get a bad ANYTHING. If somehow the block were far enough " out of kilter", couldn't it cause the mass bias to actually be shifted away from the intended spot and into an unmarked area on the ball?  

  The weightblock may have shifted severly in this ball while being poured and, could thusly, have a mass bias marker pin that would incorrectly mark where the mass bias is on the ball.  The only way I know of to determine this is to spin it up on a determinator and find the actual mass bias spot.

 The pins, both the riser pin and the mass bias marker pin, are attached to the weightblock in predetermined places.  These places, if the manufacturing process goes correctly, mark the top of the weightblock ( riser pin ) and the mass bias ( smaller pin ).  If the process goes wrong, who's to say what effect it could have?
--------------------
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Albert Einstein

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