Post by: dfusnik on December 10, 2008, 03:24:38 AM
Edited on 12/10/2008 12:25 PM
Post by: Maine Man on December 10, 2008, 11:27:18 AM
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James Goulding
Moores Pro Shop
Ball Driller / Consultant
Bowling blog: http://bowler2bowler.wordpress.com
State Site: http://www.msusbc-maine.org
Local Link: www.lausbca.org
Post by: on December 10, 2008, 11:34:36 AM
"To bring your Twisted Fury back to its original factory finish, sand the surface to 400-grit then use Brunswick’s Factory Rough Buff Finish."
Can you go wrong either way? Probably not. 220 and Rough Buff should pick up the midlane a bit earlier, so base your decision on what your particular conditions dictate. Good luck.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
Post by: Maine Man on December 10, 2008, 11:36:24 AM
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James Goulding
Moores Pro Shop
Ball Driller / Consultant
Bowling blog: http://bowler2bowler.wordpress.com
State Site: http://www.msusbc-maine.org
Local Link: www.lausbca.org
Post by: dfusnik on December 10, 2008, 01:50:53 PM
Post by: on December 10, 2008, 02:48:57 PM
You'll be fine with the 360 abralon.
Maine Man,
Anytime. I believe I was corrected on the same type question a few weeks back so it reminded me that the Twisted was different. Otherwise I always give the same answer you did... It's hard to remember everything forever, right?
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
Post by: charlest on December 10, 2008, 02:58:16 PM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: charlest on December 10, 2008, 05:37:54 PM
quote:quote:
It will give a much earlier lane read than 400 grit.
You can't sit there with a straight face and tell us that you really believe this, can you?
If you can, then you'll certainly have no problem quantifying for us EXACTLY HOW MUCH earlier of a read the 360 Abralon + Rough Buff will yield for the average bowler as compared to 400 grit paper + Rough Buff, now, will you?quote:
I'd try to get a maroon Scotch-Brite Abrlaon pad (320 grit US)at the least, preferably 400 grit wet/dry sandpaper.
Oh, and one more thing...PLEASE TRY TO SPELL MY LAST NAME CORRECTLY!
Please explain.
Yes, there is a HUGE difference between 280 grit US and 400 grit US. 120 grit difference up from 280 grit is a 45% difference. It's not like going from 2000 grit to 2120 grit. It's virtually a 50% decrease in friction.
Quantifying it? How would one do that, with so many variables involved?
Your last name? I beg your pardon .... :d
FYI This is our first and last conversation.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 12/10/2008 6:39 PM
Post by: on December 10, 2008, 06:19:24 PM
On one hand, can the "average bowler" see much change in how his ball reacts at 280 vs. 400? The average bowler has a tough time hitting target three times straight (myself included). By the time the Rough Buff compound is applied, it may be difficult to tell just how much earlier one ball reads the lane than the other unless C.A.T.S. was used.
The point that "charlest" made regarding "quantifying it" is also valid. With a compound (as opposed to a polish) the end result can vary greatly based on spinner speed used, hand pressure applied, and time spend on the process. Also, before applying the compound, did the operator shake the bottle to mix it well, or did he get the "runny stuff" off the top? So many variables...
charlest, I respect your opinion and judgement on this topic. You have demonstrated your expertise to me many times, and I tend to agree with your experience way more often than not. So, am I missing something?
Frankie and charlest, is there any reason why both points can't be (at least somewhat) correct?
I certainly don't have ALL the answers, that's why I am asking.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
Edited on 12/10/2008 7:19 PM
Post by: charlest on December 10, 2008, 07:16:15 PM
I think even the avg bowler, whether or not he hits his target every time, will see a difference between 280 and 400 grit under RB. It's why Brunswick usually specifies 220 grit under RB but chose 400 grit for the Twisted Fury Pearl. If they didn't think it would be different, why bother?
How much of a difference will depend on the "49" different factors and how good an "eye" the bowler has.
I took a lot offense at "Frankie Abralon"'s tone and wording. There is and was no need for it.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: on December 10, 2008, 08:00:08 PM
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Thanks, charlest. I know the Brunswick R&D department felt there would be a difference (or why bother?). AND the Twisted was designed to be played close to friction, so by having less surface under the Rough Buff, it would help the ball get the length needed to play there.
I'm just trying to draw out more information, where possible, for my benefit, and others who may be reading along but are not responding. You are a plethora of knowledge on the subject. I'm definitely the "surface freak" around here, but as much as I have learned, I feel there is still much more to be learned.
Have you ever been asked to watch "bowler X" out on the lanes and give some advice? I'm out there all the time. Maybe because I'm fairly patient with people, and can communicate ideas better face-to-face than some, but often times "bowler X" thinks he's rolling the ball over 8 board when it's sometimes anywhere between 6 board and 11 board. He's looking at the same target, but he's sliding at a slightly different spot on the approach each time...
And that's what I was trying to get at without being disrespectful to any person here. The average bowler thinks he's more precise than he actually is. Even the best bowlers find that a lesson on C.A.T.S. is a very humbling experience. Because even when we do hit our target, we might miss the release, or throw it faster, or slower, etc. Today's equipment and lane conditions have made it so we don't need to be "exact" for the most part.
As always, I appreciate your willingness to share your vast experience on the website.
To everyone, lets keep the site a place where we can learn from each other without the negative tones that seem to be so prevalent at times. My 2 cents.
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com
Post by: Jay on December 10, 2008, 08:27:45 PM
Post by: FranVarin on December 11, 2008, 04:56:34 PM
I have been looking for some information on how to match grits between sandpaper and Abralon. I seems from your response that you may have the info I need...it would be much appreciated if you do.
Thanks,
Fran
Post by: NoseofRI on December 11, 2008, 05:17:23 PM
quote:
Lane,
I think even the avg bowler, whether or not he hits his target every time, will see a difference between 280 and 400 grit under RB. It's why Brunswick usually specifies 220 grit under RB but chose 400 grit for the Twisted Fury Pearl. If they didn't think it would be different, why bother?
How much of a difference will depend on the "49" different factors and how good an "eye" the bowler has.
I took a lot offense at "Frankie Abralon"'s tone and wording. There is and was no need for it.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
The reason they actually did this is because someone hand doing the surface on a ball cannot match what the sanding and polishing that takes place at that factory, and the speed and heat that it is done at is completely different. Therefore in order to shops and home spinner guys the closest way to get their "rough buff" surfaces back to the factory finish is to use 400 grit paper.
From personal experience I have found that the Arbalon pads just don't give the same teeth underneath the Brusnwick polishes that sandpaper does.
And Charlest i'm going to have to agree with Frankie that a typical house bowler on a 11-1 THS will not be able to tell if his ball is reading at 42 ft or 44 ft. Abralon pads are smoother than sandpaper so i'm not exactly seeing at to how a 360 abralon pad can be equivalent to 280 sandpaper. I could see a 180 pad matching up with 280 sandpaper.
Going back to dfusnik's question, i would just stick with the 400 sandpaper, it can be found very cheap at home depot/lowe's, or probably most paint and hardware stores also.
Post by: slap on December 11, 2008, 06:42:57 PM
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"Student of the Game"
http://s9.photobucket.com/albums/a63/slap1914/bowling/
Post by: charlest on December 11, 2008, 10:12:56 PM
quote:
CharlesT
I have been looking for some information on how to match grits between sandpaper and Abralon. I seems from your response that you may have the info I need...it would be much appreciated if you do.
Thanks,
Fran
The Abralon pads are graded on what is called the FEPA scale (European abrasive manufacturers). Most sandpaper and other abrasive US manufacturers have been transitioning to this system for the past several years now, mostly because the system provides more even abrasive sizing. All abrasives (sandpaper, Abralon. Trizact and others) which are graded on the FEPA system (vs the older US system) usually have a "P" preceding the number, which is the grit level.
As far as I know:
From P800 grit to P4000 grit, just divide the number in half to get the US equivalent grit level. So P800 or 800 grit FEPA or 800 grit Abralon (I know there is no current 800 grit Abralon) = approx. 400 grit US.
P1000 grit = 1000 grit Abralon = approx. 500/550 grit US
P2000 grit = 2000 grit Abralon = approx. 1000 grit US
P4000 grit = 4000 grit Abralon = approx. 2000 grit US.
(for safety and sanity's sake, add the word, "approximately" after the 2nd "=" sign.
Below P800 things get sticky. I have to refer to a chart. Here is one:
http://www.taunton.com/finewoodworking/pages/w00006_sb2.asp
here is Mirka's, the developer and manufacturer of Abralon:
http://www.mirka-usa.com/downloads/pdf_files/grit_chart.pdf
FYI as far as I Know, at this moment in time, the numbers associated with Scotch-Brite nylon pads are US grit levele.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 12/11/2008 11:35 PM
Edited on 12/11/2008 11:36 PM
Post by: charlest on December 11, 2008, 10:18:48 PM
quote:
The rough buff surface is almost impossible to replicate at home. The amount of hand pressure and spinner speed used when applying the compound is never constant.
BrunsRico (now JustRico)ran multiple tests using abralon pads and determined a FRESH 4000 abralon pad or a worn 2000 pad will get it there.
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Righty
Speed: 17.0 (Quibica)
Revs: med-high to high (@400 RPM)
Axis: 5-3/4" 5/16 down
See Profile for arsenal
I do not believe it is impossible. I have used RB to achieve very close approximations. It's just a matter of care and persistence. I do agree that doing the equivalent with Abralon or Scotch Brite is much easier.
I have also learned that doing exactly what Brunswick says with respect to more length and less backend, by sanding finer (220 grit -> 320 grit -> 400 -> 600 -> 800) and then using RB or High Gloss polish, depending on the ball, also does work, relatively precisely.
If you want some stock surface that's extremely difficult to achieve try getting anywhere near close to Lanemasters's "sheen" finish. I won't begin to tell you how long it took me to do that, until Valentino's Resurrection came along.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: FranVarin on December 11, 2008, 10:20:07 PM
that is great insight into the differences. I'll check out the sites you provided and read up a little bit now that I have the resource.
Thanks Again,
Fran
Post by: JustRico on December 11, 2008, 10:31:18 PM
And yes, I have experimented with duplicating many of the Brunswick cover preps. And yes, I agree, in the field they can be not the easist to duplicate.
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Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: charlest on December 11, 2008, 10:32:16 PM
quote:
The reason they actually did this is because someone hand doing the surface on a ball cannot match what the sanding and polishing that takes place at that factory, and the speed and heat that it is done at is completely different. Therefore in order to shops and home spinner guys the closest way to get their "rough buff" surfaces back to the factory finish is to use 400 grit paper.
From personal experience I have found that the Arbalon pads just don't give the same teeth underneath the Brusnwick polishes that sandpaper does.
And Charlest i'm going to have to agree with Frankie that a typical house bowler on a 11-1 THS will not be able to tell if his ball is reading at 42 ft or 44 ft. Abralon pads are smoother than sandpaper so i'm not exactly seeing at to how a 360 abralon pad can be equivalent to 280 sandpaper. I could see a 180 pad matching up with 280 sandpaper.
Going back to dfusnik's question, i would just stick with the 400 sandpaper, it can be found very cheap at home depot/lowe's, or probably most paint and hardware stores also.
I don't make up the grit equivalency charts. For the most part, the manufacturers do. Mirka, the developer and manufacturer of Abralon says 360 FEPA/Abralon grit = 280 US grit. I wouldn't go by/with how it "feels" to your hand.
I agree, but would go even further: the average and the better house bowler can't tell whether the ball went 42 or 44 feet. HOWEVER, they can tell when it goes high and into the nose vs into the pocket. Given the large percentage difference between 280 and 400 grit, virtually 50% difference, at a low number, meaning high friction level, even a 200 - 220 bowler should be able to tell the difference in how early one ball would/could be with respect to the second, keeing in mind that old adage -
House wall patterns tend to hide the difference in ball reactions.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Maine Man on December 11, 2008, 10:52:33 PM
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James Goulding
Moores Pro Shop
My Bowling blog: http://bowler2bowler.wordpress.com
State Site: http://www.msusbc-maine.org
Local Link: www.lausbca.org
Post by: DP3 on December 11, 2008, 10:56:36 PM
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-DJ Marshall
...The Twelve In a Row Pro Shop. AMF Bowie Lanes -- Bowie, MD
Post by: Burak Natal on December 13, 2008, 03:02:34 PM
I agree with charlest on this. Minimum effect between 220 and 400 underlying grit would be carrying corner pins even for an average league bowler..
And, perhaps some of us hacks can repeat shots, or, at least try to give PROPER proshop service to those who can repeat shots and make spares..
Just my 2cents,
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Regards,
Natal
Post by: MTD300 on December 13, 2008, 03:25:17 PM
Post by: Burak Natal on December 13, 2008, 03:47:59 PM
Rough-Buff is a compound with abrasives in it. Actually underlying grit will not stay same when you apply it. As fas as I remember, Rick told here couple of times that RB over 220 grit(US) is very close to fresh 4000 abralon pad which seems not so controversy to what Mo says..
For the sanding lines part, Rough-Buff can handle some of them. But yes it looks terrible which is inevitable, unless ofcourse you are using resurfacing machine which can evenly sand without leaving sending lines.
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Regards,
Natal
Post by: SleepOnIce on December 13, 2008, 04:54:25 PM
If you want the answer to your question listen to charlest.
If you want to be told it doesn't matter and that you are a hack listen to Frankie A.
Hmm.... hard choice.
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BLARGH