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Author Topic: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!  (Read 11337 times)

dougb

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Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« on: September 19, 2013, 03:56:07 PM »
Jeff,

Seeing as you are the fountain of information on all things surface-related, I thought about sending you a PM.  But I thought others would appreciate this information.  I know on various occasions I've asked you about this but I never kept the information in one place, so here goes.  What's the effect on coverstock from the following cleaners and polishes?  Meaning to what degree -- if any -- does the surface get altered when you use them?

  • Clean 'n' Dull
    Clean 'n' Sheen
    Renew-It
    Hook-It
    Resurrection
    Black Magic Rejuvenator
    Power Gel Clean
    Secret Sauce
    UFO
    Factory Finish Polish
    Powerhouse Extender Polish

Thanks!!!
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 05:11:09 PM by dougb »

 

charlest

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #1 on: September 19, 2013, 07:07:06 PM »
Good grief, Doug. You're asking a lot. I do have some experience with most of those and I'll do what I can. Give me awhile to put together a decent summary. You lumped cleaners in with compounds/Polishes. I'll separate them, in what I feel are the categories in which I used them and can be used by most people.
« Last Edit: September 19, 2013, 08:21:21 PM by charlest »
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milorafferty

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #2 on: September 19, 2013, 07:16:21 PM »
Man, that sounds like a research paper!  ;D
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vkowalski1970

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #3 on: September 19, 2013, 08:09:56 PM »
More like a Thesis....
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charlest

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #4 on: September 19, 2013, 09:36:00 PM »
CLEANERS:
Cleaners do not affect the surface dullness or shine/polish or a ball. I have heard people say that using C&D on spinner removes the shine from a ball.I find that hard to believe and it is not only not supposed to do that, but also in all my years of using (from even before it was marketed by Track) I have never seen it doing that UNLESS I was applying it with an abrasive pad. I suspect they removed oil shine ground in my the use of the ball on significant oil. If they previously used a water based cleaner, it would not have removed this oil shine.

- Clean & Dull: possibly the best and strongest cleaner on the market today, in my experience. It is only approved for use before or after bowling. It is so strong I won;t use with my bare hands; I always use gloves AND I follow the original instructions from the manufacturer, APP industries: Apply with paper towel, wipe off with wet paper towel, dry with dry paper towel. As such, it's very hard to use at the bowling center after bowling. I use every 3-5 outings (9-15 games) at home. Theoretically, if you let it sit on the ball for 30 - 45 seconds, keeping the surface wet with it, it will actually draw some oil out of the pores not just remove oil from the surface. I have not tested that theory.

- Hook-It: probably the 2nd best cleaner after C&D, but too close to call. It can be sprayed on the ball at the alleys, but again it is so strong, unless you're bowling on true heavy oil, I'd only use it once every 3 or 4 outings, unless there's oil that can't be removed. Great cleaner, again it can only be used before or after competition.

- Power Gel Clean: an everyday cleaner in cream form, so it's easy to stick to the ball. Approved for use during bowling. I tried it and found it not as good as some other "during bowling" cleaners (Remedy, Rejuvenator, Knock-out, Zapp-It, Liquid Nitro, in no special order)

- Black Magic Rejuvenator: an excellent approved-for-use-during-bowling cleaner; rather strong smelling, so be cautious, not toxic as far as I know.

The above is not an all inclusive list, just the ones Doug asked about.

Addendum:
LMB International High Performance Bowling ball cleaner (formerly known as LaneMasters cleaner. LMB is not associated with LaneMasters):
This stuff ranks up there with Hook-It and Clean and Dull as one of the strongest bowing ball specific & approved cleaners I have ever tried. I have found it stronger and better than pure acetone. Originally it had an extremely stronger aroma/smell. If you have asthma, do not use it. Johnnie Jones, one of the original owners of LM, told me it was an industrial strength alcohol. The new versions have much less of a strong smell. It is still very fragrant. It is THE cleaner I use once I am finished bowling, before I put my balls back in the bag.

COMPOUNDS:
- Clean and Sheen: This compound (not strictly a polish, similar in overall intent to Rough Buff and Storm's Step 2) has recently been revived. I have used it for a long time, on and off. Its original intent was to finish routed plug areas from around 360 grit to the equivalent of a 1000 grit polish. So the driller didn't have to  use many devices to finish the area to the customer's satisfaction. This is a HIGHLY abrasive compound and your results depend on many human factors; so unless you're cautious and careful and have a sharp eye for detail, every ball will be different from the previous one. You are warned! :( Dependencies: what your starting grit level on the ball is, how much applied, the type of cloth used to apply it, how hard you press, how long you spin it, etc., etc.

The good part is, like with Rough Buff: you can get many degrees of surface finish, with experience. It can let you do many things. This is especially important for rev dominant bowlers; not so much with speed dominant ones who needs fewer surface  variations.

I would keep the starting grit levels when using C&S in the 320 - 1000 grit range. If you start with anything more than 1000 grit, you might leave sanding marks with too little usage or you might get too much smoothness or too much shine, for which you are better off using another polish. Again, experience will teach you more than words can.

- Resurrection: This is a GREAT product; it is a compound that will get 2 different results when used by hand and when used on a spinner. It is good for a refreshing of a medium-rough surface and to remove stubborn oil or other marks or just to remove the polish. It can theoretically, like C&D, remove some oil from just below the surface of the ball By hand it will change the surface to 800 grit US/CAMI or the equivalent of P1600 grit FEPA (Abralon, Siaair, NEAT pads & most current sandpaper use this grading). When used by spinner, the abrasive will break down enough to give to a light to a higher gloss shine, depending on amount used, pressure and time. Using medium pressure for 30 - 45 seconds per side will give a nice medium shine and an alternative to the hand finished Resurrection surface of P1600 grit.

I believe (never used it) Motiv's Power Gel Scuff can serve a similar purpose.

POLISHES: all polishes contain micro-abrasives and all change the surface of the ball. The results depend on the starting grit level of the ball, how much you apply, how hard you press, etc., etc. All polishes contain varying amounts or types of abrasives, from the highly abrasive Extender Polish, Secret Sauce, & Storm's Xtra Shine to the almost non-abrasive Snake Oil and Power Gel polish. The non-abrasive (actually "least abrasive" is a better term for these.) ones allow you a wide range of finishes. The more abrasive ones are quicker to shine. AGAIN, part of your result depends on the grit level of the ball.

If any polish comes with a grit level on it, be aware that it is highly unlikely that your ball will be at that level when you finish. It is just an estimation, based on the abrasive in the polish. There are too many dependencies for that to be 100% true. For example, what are the odds of 2 balls winding up the same if you start one at 320 grit and one at 4000 grit?

- Renew-It: This is one of those cleaner/polishes, because it contains a small amount of Neo-Tac's great cleaner, Hook-It, as well as polish. (There are very few cleaner/polishes these days, as most manufacturers use one of the other. However this is good enough as a polish to leave it just as it is.) I  wouldn't use it on dull balls unless you want to sand them all over again. According to Neo-Tac, Renew-it is in the 2000 grit range, but I'd strongly suggest that what you get depends on all the usual factors already mentioned. It does get a nice shine on the ball and I do use it, especially to touch up balls that seem to have had their tracks smoother out a little too much by use on the lane.

- Powerhouse Factory Finish: This is an excellent polish; I like almost as much as Snake Oil, my favorite. It is what I would call a medium abrasive polish, about half way between Snake Oil and Xtra Shine. Like these good polishes, it lasts a good amount of time. I wouldn't sand a ball finer than 2000 grit with this one. A 2000 grit and a 4000 grit come out about the same with medium abrasive polishes. (BJI ball tester, Joe Cerrar, uses a surface scanner to test stock polished balls; almost every polished ball was in the 5100 - 5500 grit range.)

- Powerhouse Extender Polish: I haven't used this one very much personally. It has micro fine abrasives which take a ball to a very fine level and puts a high gloss polish on it. I put this one in the POLISH category because I believe it does not have a slip agent in it, like UFO, Delayed Reaction or Control-It. I have been able to duplicate its results by using other polishes more easily, like Xtra Shine or just sanding balls to a higher numeric rating (finer surface) before applying polish.

- Secret Sauce: This is THE most abrasive polish I have ever used. It is so abrasive that even the creator, Beans, recommended that you use no finer (higher numeric) grit level than 1000 grit before applying it. To me, it's kind of an all or nothing polish, with few levels in between dull and super high gloss shine. So I don't use it very often; I do use it every once in a while. If your urethane is too hard to polish normally, use Secret Sauce!

Slip Agent POLISH: This type of polish needs to be used with an awareness of what you're doing to the ball!! Basically this type uses silicone to clog the pores of the ball preventing it from absorbing oil. It also polishes the ball like ordinary polishes. Examples are Delayed Reaction and Control-It. This is the equivalent of using car wax to polish the ball. Wax has silicone in it which clogs the pores until you sand the ball down to the 360 - 500 grit range. The ball goes longer, hooks less and you get less backend.

- UFO: This is a special version of slip agent in that it does NOT use silicone to clog the pores. It uses an organic agent, according to Kevin of Valentino's. This gives it special properties, if you will. It is significantly easier to remove than Delayed Reaction and Control-It; you only need to sand it lightly with 4000 or 2000 grit to get rid of the UFO. On the other hand, it lasts about 25 games. You need to re-apply around that time, but by 25 games most polished balls have some of their polish worn off or smooth and need to be re-polished in any case.
(It makes no sense to use a slip agent polish on a urethane or polyester ball because they don't get their hook abilities from oil absorption; so use a regular polish to shine them.)
« Last Edit: March 03, 2014, 11:14:17 AM by charlest »
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

scotts33

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #5 on: September 19, 2013, 11:10:51 PM »
Great synopsis Jeff!

Do you believe C&D, LM or now LMI cleaner or Hook-IT removes lane shine from balls that have been used a number of games most notably Storm/RG covers?
Scott

dougb

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #6 on: September 19, 2013, 11:23:06 PM »
Jeff,

We are not worthy!!!

Thank you for your incredibly detailed response.  I deeply appreciate your contributions to all of our online bowling communities.

Doug

lefty50

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #7 on: September 19, 2013, 11:46:11 PM »
Good stuff Jeff.......

charlest

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #8 on: September 20, 2013, 05:17:05 AM »
Great synopsis Jeff!

Do you believe C&D, LM or now LMI cleaner or Hook-IT removes lane shine from balls that have been used a number of games most notably Storm/RG covers?

Unless you use an abrasive (compound or pad), they are the only ones that truly remove the ground in oil. LMI, LaneMasters International, (formerly LaneMasters) is the cleaner I use after bowling, at the alleys.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

scotts33

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #9 on: September 20, 2013, 05:54:54 AM »
Great synopsis Jeff!

Do you believe C&D, LM or now LMI cleaner or Hook-IT removes lane shine from balls that have been used a number of games most notably Storm/RG covers?

Unless you use an abrasive (compound or pad), they are the only ones that truly remove the ground in oil. LMI, LaneMasters International, (formerly LaneMasters) is the cleaner I use after bowling, at the alleys.

So, they (those three cleaners I listed) do remove lane shine and that's why folks think they dull up a ball....yes?
Scott

vkowalski1970

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #10 on: September 20, 2013, 06:44:16 AM »
I'm gonna try resurrection today
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charlest

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #11 on: September 20, 2013, 08:35:58 AM »
Great synopsis Jeff!

Do you believe C&D, LM or now LMI cleaner or Hook-IT removes lane shine from balls that have been used a number of games most notably Storm/RG covers?

Unless you use an abrasive (compound or pad), they are the only ones that truly remove the ground in oil. LMI, LaneMasters International, (formerly LaneMasters) is the cleaner I use after bowling, at the alleys.

So, they (those three cleaners I listed) do remove lane shine and that's why folks think they dull up a ball....yes?

That's my thought. It's never removed any true polish from any ball even when I used it on a spinner. There is no abrasive in Clean 'n' Dull, as far as I know.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Impending Doom

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #12 on: September 20, 2013, 11:05:13 AM »
Charlest,

I am going to back you writing for BTM, I swear.

charlest

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #13 on: September 20, 2013, 12:17:05 PM »
Charlest,

I am going to back you writing for BTM, I swear.

Thank you.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

dougb

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Re: Charlest, please grace us with your knowledge!
« Reply #14 on: September 20, 2013, 12:24:14 PM »
Charlest,

I am going to back you writing for BTM, I swear.

+1000!