Post by: DukeHarding on February 22, 2008, 01:21:48 AM
I did experiments on a couple of NIB balls, that had never touched a lane.
Found that heat lamps, hot water, and hair dryers, ALL made something come out of the ball. Some balls released more liquid than other.
Thought that it couldn't be OIL, so guessed that it was plasticizer.
Do you think bleeding out plasticizer is a problem?
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Duke Harding
Post by: legend4life95 on February 22, 2008, 10:01:57 AM
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****Kids in the back seat cause accidents; accidents in the back seat cause kids.****
Edited on 2/22/2008 11:02 AM
Post by: DukeHarding on February 22, 2008, 10:08:27 AM
quote:
Yes. It is what turns urethane into reactive resin.
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****Kids in the back seat cause accidents; accidents in the back seat cause kids.****
Edited on 2/22/2008 11:02 AM
So when you leach out the plasticizer you end up with a urethane ball (of sorts, w/a strong core)?
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Duke Harding
Post by: Phillip Marlowe on February 22, 2008, 10:22:29 AM
quote:
This is an interesting topic. If it is plasticizer, is it left-over plasticizer that is not needed?
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The Elitest: "The other monkey sister is still in." Isn't racism funny?
No. Heat eventually kills reactive bowling balls, whether it is friction from throwing the ball or heat from baking. Adding "baking" to friction just accelerates the process dramatically.
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"Now lets see you do something really tough. Like getting up."
Post by: legend4life95 on February 22, 2008, 10:26:43 AM
quote:quote:
Yes. It is what turns urethane into reactive resin.
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****Kids in the back seat cause accidents; accidents in the back seat cause kids.****
Edited on 2/22/2008 11:02 AM
So when you leach out the plasticizers you end up with a urethane ball (of sorts, w/a strong core)?
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Duke Harding
This topic has been discussed in the past and if I remember correctly, it is said that bleeding out the plasticizers will weaken the ball drastically and start reacting like the urethane base. There is a safe way to bake a ball to extract oil only. I believe the heat has to be controlled and can not get over 135-145 degrees. I could be wrong on those exact temperatures though.
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****Kids in the back seat cause accidents; accidents in the back seat cause kids.****
Post by: DON DRAPER on February 22, 2008, 10:35:44 AM
Post by: on February 22, 2008, 01:35:31 PM
It may affect some coverstocks differently than others, but I agree with Greg Hoppe on this one. Brunswick actually recommends the process for their coverstocks. We've been putting every brand imaginable in it over the years with positive results. You choose. Try the process, or keep on buying new balls prematurely.
What happens to the ball when it soaks up enough oil that it isn't working well anymore? It sits in a locker, and gets replaced eventually... What have you got to lose if the ball is "dead"? Are you afraid to kill it more?
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Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Amateur Staff
Edited on 2/22/2008 3:19 PM
Post by: Lillen on February 22, 2008, 02:24:32 PM
quote:
Although I don't doubt what Duke's experience is, years ago when our shop first got the Revivor we put two new bowling balls in for 4 hours without anything coming out - not anything!
A Pro Shop here in Sweden did the same thing for about 8 hours and nothing came out..
Post by: legend4life95 on February 22, 2008, 02:28:08 PM
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****Kids in the back seat cause accidents; accidents in the back seat cause kids.****
Post by: chitown on February 22, 2008, 04:43:28 PM
quote:
Its b/c those Revivor are set to temperatures that are within safe standards. Using other methods like hair dryers and heat lamps put to much heat on them. Not to mention they heat the ball unevenly. A revivor or bucket of hot water would heat the ball evenly. You would just have to keep the water temp within a safe range.
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****Kids in the back seat cause accidents; accidents in the back seat cause kids.****
Totally agree. I think the max temp to only get oil out of the ball is 150-160 degree's. Not exactly sure about the temp but remember reading about it.
I use the HOT WATER BATH method and have great results from it. I'm sure the revivor would work really good as well. It's just a lot cheaper for me to use hot water at my house.
Post by: BrunsNick on February 22, 2008, 04:46:52 PM
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Nick Smith ... A.K.A. Les Badderâ„¢
Brunswick -=- PBA 03-08
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Post by: azus on February 22, 2008, 04:58:14 PM
quote:
USBC did a test on this, they tested the liquid coming out of the ball. It was something like 99.995% lane oil.
Doesnt say to much, if we dont know the amount of plasticize in a bowling ball, those 0.005% can be a big amount..
The Platicize may sweat out of the ball if the temp is above 60 degree celcius. A rejuvenator proabaly >50 degree C, so the plasticize wont be extracted.
Have anyone tried baking a Nib ball in temperatures above 140F/60C? I bet something will extract from it.
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Cute Bunny! copy bunny into sig to help him achieve world domination
Post by: charlest on February 22, 2008, 05:26:46 PM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Post by: 86camaroman on March 04, 2008, 08:12:20 AM
Post by: Fluff E Bunnie on March 24, 2008, 03:39:15 PM
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"When in doubt, pull out." - ESPN's Rob Stone
Post by: chatnboy on March 26, 2008, 12:08:32 AM
Post by: purduepaul on March 26, 2008, 07:47:31 AM
Nick, I don't think I did that test, however now I'm curious.
Paul
Post by: Strapper_Squared on March 26, 2008, 08:10:02 AM
So what are plasticizers/templates?
Plasticizers are compounds added to plastic mixture to soften it or give it more flexibility. A template is a compound added to a plastic mixture to promote or enhance the production of porosity upon curing.
The amount of this material that is able to be extracted from any given ball is very likely directly related to the specific formulation used in the production of the coverstock material.
I'm not 100% sure what happened to that data (probably saved somewhere on my computer).. I'll see if I can dig it up again.. if not, I will repeat the tests.. this time I will analyze a sample of lane oil and compare it to a sample of "liquid" removed from a ball during rejuvenation.
S^2
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+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+-+
"The haddock hits me with a sucker punch. I catch him with a left hook.
He eels over. It was a fluke, but there he was, lying on the deck,
flat as a mackerel, kelpless."
Post by: purduepaul on March 26, 2008, 10:12:49 AM
Not a drop.
Post by: Aloarjr810 on March 26, 2008, 10:40:52 AM
story is 4 pages with pictures and diagrams.
Click Here Why Balls Die (http://"http://www.ebonite.com/products/accessories/hook_again/whyballsdie.php")
Heres a sample-
"What Creates The Hook Is Also What Kills It
Plasticizer migration does two things in high concentrations. First, it slows oil
absorption, which is one of the reasons for loss in ball performance. Second, and
more importantly, migration concentrates plasticizer in the track area of the
ball."
"The Reactive Ball Death Theory
It’s more plasticizer saturation than lane oil absorption"
" Diagram 5 shows the effects of heat on a coverstock. Notice the sweating of
plasticizer on the surface of the coverstock as heat is applied."
"Particle ball death can be largely attributed to the migration of the
plasticizer as well as degradation of the particle, specifically glass bubble
particles."
Post by: NicholasE on March 26, 2008, 10:52:53 AM
quote:
For some more info take a look at Ebonites "Why Do Bowling Balls Die?" article
story is 4 pages with pictures and diagrams.
Click Here Why Balls Die (http://"http://www.ebonite.com/products/accessories/hook_again/whyballsdie.php")
Heres a sample-
"What Creates The Hook Is Also What Kills It
Plasticizer migration does two things in high concentrations. First, it slows oil
absorption, which is one of the reasons for loss in ball performance. Second, and
more importantly, migration concentrates plasticizer in the track area of the
ball."
"The Reactive Ball Death Theory
It’s more plasticizer saturation than lane oil absorption"
" Diagram 5 shows the effects of heat on a coverstock. Notice the sweating of
plasticizer on the surface of the coverstock as heat is applied."
"Particle ball death can be largely attributed to the migration of the
plasticizer as well as degradation of the particle, specifically glass bubble
particles."
Thats pretty interesting, guess ebonite would be the first to know seeing to it that they tend to have a lot of ball death problems.
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Throwing hambones since 2005.
www.myspace.com/nestes12
Post by: Holiday on April 04, 2008, 09:40:31 AM
Post by: DON DRAPER on April 04, 2008, 01:54:48 PM
Post by: charlest on April 06, 2008, 11:18:49 AM
quote:quote:
brunswick testing has show that using a rejuvenator will sweat the oil out of a ball with no bleeding of plasticizers
..their comment relates to only Brunswick balls...yes/no?
True, and not true. While their testing probably relates only to their balls, it has been shown to be true to many brands of bowling balls, if only because heat, when used properly, has shown to rejuvenate bowling balls, by extracting oil (at least) from them.
quote:
i think it only fair to consider that each company may have different levels of porosity and plasticizer in their covers.
Many companies use different suppliers of resin material. Heck, (as far as I know) even though Storm owns Roto-Grip and manufactures RG on the same assembly line, Roto-Grip uses a different resin supplier than Storm. So it is possible thatthe resins used by the different ball manufactrers may be very different from one other OR very similar. Not being a resin chemist, I cannot say for sure.
quote:
howvever, many people have assumed that bleeding plasticizer out is bad,
yet "hook again" folks say bleeding plasticizer out is THE objective.
I think you have the subject right, but the process wrong. The object of Hook Again, as far as I have read and understood, is NOT to bleed the plasticizer out, but to allow the Hook Again material to absorb the plasticizer that has migrated to the surface and is preventing the resin from absorbing the oil, the EBonite method of "hooking" or providing the extra hook we see today.
I strongly doubt that the powder used by Hook AGain, actually goes down into the substrate of the resin and "sucks" out all the plasticizer. After all, that would basically make a resin ball into a urethane ball (to put a very simplistic tilt on the subject).
quote:
...and everyone conceeds that heat is a mechanism which removes both oil and/or plasticizer from the cover. If you screw up you may damage the ball structurally, but no one has identified any potential chemical damage to the cover material. ??
-bill
I believe it has been shown that heat is not detrimental to bowling balls, anymore than heat is detrimental to human beings. Just because we suffer a lot when the temperature goes above 100 degrees Fahrenheit, does not mean we keep our thermostats at 32 degrees all the time. The same comparison is applicable to resin bowling balls. The safety range for bowling balls is in the 140 - 150 degree range, from all I have read and been led to understand. Above that the oily substance removed is plasticizer (plus lane oil, if it is present); below that temperature, it is only lane oil that is removed.
That said, I have read here on ballreviews that people have successfully rejuvenated Ebonite manufactured balls, as well as othe rbrands, using the heat methods: dishwashers, hot water baths, Revivors, Rejuvenators, black plastic bags on the patio placed in the sun in the South or the West during the Summer (kind of dangerous since the temperature is not regulated).
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Edited on 4/6/2008 11:22 AM
Post by: charlest on April 06, 2008, 01:13:54 PM
- the documentaiton that comes with the Revivvor and the Rejuvenator. They let you set a temperature and give that range, and
- several people who represent several bowling manufacturers have stated that range in their posts here. These were/are people who work in the design sections and the technical sections of the manufacturers. They used to post here regularly, before the "children" here at ballreviews drove them away with their petty and puerile criticisms.
There are actually a few people involved in the chemical and resin industries who are bowlers and post here on ballreviews.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on April 06, 2008, 04:50:50 PM
quote:
so far i believe this thread has been quite well mannered and i definitely appreciate all of the observations that others have contributed.
i think you missed my point regarding a reference for your quote.
it was the bold part i was referring to:
"Above that the oily substance removed is plasticizer (plus lane oil, if it is present); below that temperature, it is only lane oil that is removed. "
the 140-150F temperature makes sense for a few reasons,
but i was particularly interested in why you believe the oil and plasticizer behave differently at that specific reference temperature?
Because people whom I assume know said so.
quote:
i know you mentioned it before in this thread, but i have not found it mentioned anywhere else.
I didn't say it was mentioned in this thread. It has beenmentioned many times over the past 5 years or so in ballreviews.
quote:
perhaps i'm also missing your real point.
i know you support methods like the rejeuvenator. (me too)
do you have an opinion regarding any possible role of plasticizers in "ball death" or damage that may result if they are removed ?
regards,
-bill
Edited on 4/6/2008 3:24 PM
Bill,
As far as I have learned, again, from people who I assume know, plasticizers are what make urethane into resin. Remove all the plasticizers from resin and you have urethane or no hook.
People have put new, unused balls into ovens and into intensely heated summer car trunks in the South and out came an oily substance. Since it couldn't have been lane oil, I can only assume it must have been plasticizers or their catalysts.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: charlest on April 06, 2008, 08:46:51 PM
Again, you're making assumptions about the chemical process of making resin. You shouldn't do that until you talk to a resin chemist.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
Post by: Kid Jete on April 06, 2008, 09:03:24 PM
quote:
BIll,
Again, you're making assumptions about the chemical process of making resin. You shouldn't do that until you talk to a resin chemist.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ (http://"http://home.mchsi.com/~s-cross-7-28-71/FAQ.htm")
It does make sense what he's saying though. Whether it be right or not it's certainly believable lol. I can't believe a ball manufacturer hasn't come forward with a definitive answer considering I have seen this talked about for many years.
Edited on 4/6/2008 9:03 PM
Post by: Kid Jete on April 09, 2008, 05:17:38 PM
quote:
Bowling ball chemistry, according to bill.
The following is my interpretation of the offerings cited in this thread.
Bowling ball covers are principally urethane compounds and by themselves have the hardness and coefficient of friction to function as a bowling ball. Did you know there is a regulation for bowling ball hardness (75 ShoreD)?
In the presence of oil, urethanes and everything else have reduced friction or traction on the lanes.
So the bowling gods invented “reactive resinâ€
The truth is (according to bill with a few references cited above) there is little difference between the actual resins used in either product. However the reactive coverstocks are made porous to allow for the absorption of lane oil.
The blowing agents used to create porosity are well known plasticizers normally used in the formulation of plastics like PVC to make them softer or more flexible.
However when combined with the ingredients for urethane these plasticizers are intended to only dilute the mixture and not react (form a chemical interaction) with the urethane.
However one of the references did indicated that there is some softening of the urethane by the plasticizers (which forced the resin 'designer' to make harder urethanes)
Prior to the cure phase the plasticizer is uniformly dispersed throughout the mixture of urethane resins and catalyst. Upon heating to approx (140-160F) the urethane becomes a solid while the liquid dispersion of plasticizer expands within. After cooling, the plasticizer contracts leaving a porous matrix within the coverstock material.
TXIB (a clear oily liquid) is one plasticizer mentioned. It has a low vapor pressure and high boiling point (540F). The result is that it is not very volatile and not likely to become a gas during normal cure temperatures or evaporate out of the shell during normal use.
So in all likelihood the majority of the plasticizer dispersed throughout the coverstock during the cure phase of the ball is still there when your ball is delivered, NIB
(Examples in the Bayer patents put the amount of plasticizer at 42%, by weight, of the cover ingredients. YIKES!)
So if you put your NIB ball in the oven and heat it up to 140-150 that would expand the plasticizer close to where it was when the ball was curing, and virtually fill all the voids.
If any the plasticizer has migrated towards the outer portions of the shell, the voids behind the liquid would easily expand upon heating and drive the liquid out.
Additionally lane oil/conditioner which is mostly mineral oil also has a low vapor pressure and relatively high boiling point (500F). Again, it not volatile at room temps and not likely to evaporate out on it own.
If heated, any oil absorbed by the cover would be the first element to be driven out of the matrix as both the oil and gaseous voids expand. Theoretically it makes sense that you need more heat to remove plasticizers, because they originate deeper in the shell.
But if the ‘HOOK AGAIN’ folks are correct in suggesting that the plasticizer migrates to the shell exterior, any expanding gas in the underlying porosity should easily drive the liquid out when heated. As stated the HOOH AGAIN folks do not condone the use of heat. My only concern with the HOOK AGAIN approach to removing the liquids with some form of absorbent is the efficiency of their suggested process. But to their credit their story is the one most consistent with the details uncovered to date. So I’d let folks decide for themselves
Well that’s my story and I’m stickin to it.
-bill
Edited on 4/9/2008 5:11 PM
Cool read. So we could come to a reasonable conclusion that even if plasticizer was removed from the ball while using an oil extraction method it shouldn't effect the balls performance because plasticizer is used to create pores in the coverstock not reaction chemically with the urethane ingredients. Obviously this isn't fact, only my assumption after reading the research you did, but seems to make sense.
Edited on 4/9/2008 5:18 PM
Post by: Lane1Redneck on April 09, 2008, 05:27:00 PM
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Looks Like a Telefunken U-47
Please don't drink and vote
YOU CAN'T AFFORD HER
F.O.S
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Jeff
Edited on 4/9/2008 5:28 PM
Post by: Kid Jete on April 09, 2008, 05:30:21 PM
quote:
So if you then keep your temps below 140 you should only be seeing oil/conditioner come out of your ball, not plastercizer ? No ? And would be safe to say that would not harm you ball ?
--------------------
Looks Like a Telefunken U-47
Please don't drink and vote
YOU CAN'T AFFORD HER
F.O.S
Great deals,and service www.Shirts4Bowling.com
Jeff
Edited on 4/9/2008 5:28 PM
I would have to assume this to be true which is why you always hear the magic 140 degree mark. I wonder if elevation has an effect on what temp the plasticizers expand?
Post by: Jock on April 24, 2008, 07:02:46 AM
Here's an interesting post on this subject from pba.com!
Enjoy!
There seems to be a popular misconception that plasticizers in a ball are inherently required to get the ball response (hook)that bowlers expect. This is a half truth. Certain plasticizers may be added to the coverstock resin to control hardness and/or the coefficient of friction, but these are chemically reacted into the polymer network. For all practical purposes, they do not migrate in or out of the ball. They are locked in place.
However, to make the balls porous, the ball manufacturer adds a non-reactive plasticizer into the mix as well. This plasticizer cannot and does not get locked in place. Its sole purpose is to worm its way out of the ball as the coverstock solidifies during the curing process leaving behind micropores in the cover that the non-reactive plasticizer left behind as it migrated to the surface. It is these pores that soak up lane oil and promote more hook by sucking up oil from the ball surface that is in contact with the lane surface. This is the reason why a never used new ball can be baked and oil will come to the surface. That oil is really non-reactive plasticizer that never quite made it out of the ball at the plant. This type of plasticizer is not a hook enhancer by its presence, but rather by its absence.
The situation posed in this thread where an old retired ball suddenly seems to have new life is most probably due to the fact that the lane oil that had been lodged in the pores of the ball has had sufficient time to: 1)evaporate, 2)evironmentally degrade, or 3)to slowly be absorbed into the core of the ball leaving the pores once again open to absorb more oil.
If you want to keep your ball in good performance condition, clean it after every use and occasionally give it a light resurfacing to open up the pores that had become clogged with lane grim.
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I've upped my average, so up yours!
Edited on 4/24/2008 7:08 AM