Author Topic: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil? (Read 8841 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** February 20, 2009, 06:52:29 AM »

I have been looking at all the oil extraction posts and reading articles about hot water baths and hook-again type extraction. Also reading about the plasticizer debate. Whether it is the ball losing plasticizer that creates the loss of hook... Or is it the plasticizer coming near the surface that makes the ball hook less.

Anyway.. got a new ball ( epic odyssey ).. the ball is pretty dull OOB. Wanted to do a test.. put a heat gun on the ball and immediately the ball started getting shiny and an "oily" liquid substance started appearing on the heated part of the ball. After I took the heat off of the ball the substance soaked back into the cover. I am assuming this is the plasticizer.

Question is.. do we want this in the ball or not? And if so, maybe too many hot water baths are not good if it is taking this out of the ball. I know that plasticizers are used in the production to increase plasticity. Does it only help the ball's structure during manufacturing and it isn't needed once the ball is formed and cured??

Would doing a water bath, dishwasher, or hook-again extraction on a brand new ball before it hits the lanes help or hurt the performance??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 2/20/2009 4:08 PM

Edited on 2/20/2009 4:23 PM

DON DRAPER · « **Reply #1 on:** February 20, 2009, 03:45:42 PM »

i can't speak for other ball companies equipment but the testing brunswick and morich have done on the subject has shown that the use of the revivor or rejuvenator safely extracts lane oil that has been absorbed by the coverstock of the ball.

« **Reply #2 on:** February 20, 2009, 04:52:32 PM »

I agree with Greg. I don't know what was coming out of the odyssey.

I have also learned that today's lane conditioners contain some plasticizers in them, which would explain how tests on extracted lane oil (after ball use) show traces of plasticizer in addition to the oil.

--------------------
Lane Carter, Strike Zone Pro Shops - Salt Lake City, Utah
Brunswick Pro Shop Staff
www.brunswickbowling.com

86camaroman · « **Reply #3 on:** February 20, 2009, 05:03:18 PM »

I know I tried doing it to a ball after I threw like 2 shots with it and nothing came out of it at all.

charlest · « **Reply #4 on:** February 22, 2009, 05:10:19 PM »

From some of the technical data I have read, I thought that keeping the temperature at or below 150 degrees Fahrenheit did not affect the plasticizers btu allowed the lane oil to migrate to the surface of the ball.

This is why things like heat guns and ovens (much hotter than 150 degrees) are not appropriate, as far as I have learned, for removing oil from balls. Also when water heaters are set too high, above 150 degrees, it is also bad for balls.

The core and the filler and the coverstock are 3 different materials and all have different expansion coefficients. That is, they expand and contract at different rates. This difference in expansion rates is what CAN result is cracked balls. Also car trunks in southern climates in the South where the sun beats very strongly can have a similar effect.

So the Revivor and Rejuvenator machines which keep the temperature at or below 140 degrees is one of the safest and more thorough ways of doing oil extractions.

--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

J_w73 · « **Reply #5 on:** February 22, 2009, 06:02:33 PM »

repsonse from Rotogrip tech service:

Heat guns can generate temperatures well above 150 degrees which is the critical point of our coverstock. What happens is any temperature over 130% can de-stabilize the matrix structure of the coverstock and pull the additives out of the cover. This will, in turn, not only weaken the structure due to the missing links in the coverstock, but also cause the ball to lose elasticity. This will cause the surface of the ball to have a smaller footprint as well such the surface is no longer as elastic. Of course, the smaller the print, the less friction and the less hook the ball will have over-all. Finally, the lose of elasticity means the ball will be more prone to tracking, breaking, and cracking. Hence, our warranty is void if the ball has been baked because it is now not only less reactive, but much more likely to breaking.

This sounds like what ever is in the ball is supposed to stay there and removing it will make the ball lose its elasticity..and also make the ball brittle.
I was along the same thinking as you zfennel that it was just an additive that was used in the forming/ curing process to create the pores and cell structure in the coverstock.... and that it wasn't needed and it was removed it would allow more room for oil...

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 2/22/2009 8:44 PM

tenpinspro · « **Reply #6 on:** February 22, 2009, 08:09:31 PM »

Hey J_w,

I've had this happen many times with different balls. I sometimes use a blow dryer on thumb sleeves (to get them softer for easier cutting) and I get all types of "new" balls to sweat. Figured it was plasticizer and/or some liquid that helped bond a ball or maintain its elasticity.
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion

J_w73 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 23, 2009, 10:49:15 AM »

I still don't think I have received a straight answer as to whether what is coming out is needed or not. Because what was coming out was doing it at a temp under 130 deg F and if that is the case then a hot water batch would pull this substance out.

Here is another response from Rotogrip.

Here is a great definition from Wikipediaâ€¦. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasticizer

Plasticizers for plastics are additives, most commonly phthalates, that give hard plastics like PVC the desired flexibility and durability. They are often based on esters of polycarboxylic acids with linear or branched aliphatic alcohols of moderate chain length. Plasticizers work by embedding themselves between the chains of polymers, spacing them apart (increasing of the "free volume"), and thus significantly lowering the glass transition temperature for the plastic and making it softer.

From our research, what you are seeing could be one of two things: un-bonded polymer chains because the mix was perfectly homogenous a bi-product when the chemicals were mixed and hardened or destabilized additives (plasticizer by a loose definition). Remember, in order to create unique reactive urethane compounds, additives have be added to create the porous surface of the ball. Some of these additives have been designed to â€˜bakeâ€™ off of the ball during production (Ebonite hence plasticizer theory) or perfectly bond within the coverstock to create strength and porosity. Iâ€™d go into greater detail, but most of the information is proprietary about our coverstock technology.

To safely de-oil the ball, all you need to do is soak it in warm water. Temperatures around 120 â€“ 130 are perfect. If you go above this temperature, you can release un-bonded additives, bi-products, or even pull fully bonded additives from the coverstock.

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

tenpinspro · « **Reply #8 on:** February 23, 2009, 11:44:01 AM »

FWIW, when I worked for Ebonite, R&D did do some in depth testing concerning "oil soaked" balls or what the common bowler referred to as ball death.

In their findings, it was not oil directly that reduced the the performance of a ball but the fact that when oil absorption occurred, plasticizer would rise to the top of the oil because they were composed of lighter molecules in comparison. When plasticizer hit the surface of a ball, that would glaze up on the surface and that's what caused a decrease in reaction.

The suggested method to correct this was to lightly remove (sanding) the glaze by approximately 2 grits from whatever the ball grit was at and then soak in hot water to remove the oil. So from my understanding of this, some plasticizer would be removed occasionally dependent upon the bowlers use or necessity to perform this task.

I believe this subject was written in their magazine "Pro Shop Insider" in the Summer and Fall edition of 2007. Check with your local shop to see if they have them (you'll see me on the cover of Fall 07' as well...figjam off).

--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion

Edited on 2/23/2009 12:46 PM

J_w73 · « **Reply #9 on:** February 23, 2009, 12:26:27 PM »

Yes Tenpinspro...
Ebonite does a pretty decent write up on the subject in their hook-again promo material. It sounds plausible and accurate but I guess it all comes down to who you believe.. Some people will say ebonites angle on plasticizer is just a marketing ploy to sell their hook-again oil extraction products.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #10 on:** February 23, 2009, 01:45:23 PM »

I agree with you zfennell and sorry for going over it more times than you think are necessary as I probably did. What I don't get from the manufacturers that I am getting from you is, "If this "stuff" comes out during a normal oil extraction process (ie under 130 deg F or hook-again compression) then it is ok to take it out of the ball." Maybe they have in so many words but I still feel a hym (sp) and haw over the issue which leads me to two conclusions. Either they don't know the truth or believe in the things they are telling me or they are trying to protect their butts for some reason.. or a little of both..

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #11 on:** February 23, 2009, 03:02:23 PM »

quote:
not in so many words...
but they all acknowledge the need for some type of coverstock maintenance after extended use.

hot water bath
rejuvinator
revivor
hook again.

each of the manufactures has endorced the use of one or more of the above list.
and none of the processes can tell the difference between oil or plasticizer or beer.
if it comes out in any of "approved" methods is there a return path for any 'non-approved' compounds that get extracted?
i dont think so.

My only attempt at sounding reasonable would be to add that all balls appear to work just fine OOB, regardless of the presence of any liquid when you apply heat. The balls surface needs to be porous enough to absorb lane oil, one shot to the next. If that happens, why go looking for trouble?

once the reaction starts to fade, use your best judgement and do what you can.
nothing to lose at this point, unless you have your heart set on a brand new super soaker.

-bill

I'll put this out there so I can atleast say I had the idea when it happens...

I understand the part about, "why go looking for trouble"

but what if that excess "stuff" being removed allows for more room for oil in the coverstock and the ball needs less maintanence? or is more aggressive from the start?
Might be a great marketing idea for a company to add that extra step to their process and then they can bill their balls as needing less maintenance and being able to handle more games before any sign of fading performance

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #12 on:** February 23, 2009, 03:47:05 PM »

quote:

no need to appologise for your questions.
my advanced age and poor typing skills make my responses a bit abrupt.
I was refering to extended discussions Charlest and I have had on this topic.
If you can get the "longterm" search function to work you can see the places we've been.
less than a year ago, it was difficult to get folks to acknowledge that 'reactive resin' just meant the ball was porous.
..so we've made progress

it certainly sound logical that more internal volume will allow for more total absorbtion.
its not clear how the rate of absorbtion would be effected.

-bill

It sounds like we have similar frustrations.. reactive resin has been around almost 20 years and people are just now understanding what it is..
things like this frustrate me as well.
Seems in the last 5 years Pin to PAP is finally being accepted as what determines track flare,not cause the pin is next to your ring finger There is still alot of work to be done cause I bet probably less than 50% of the proshops in my area use pin to PAP when laying out a ball. And if you go in there and bring it up they will just go along with what you are saying while you can tell that they either have no idea what you are saying or don't buy into the idea of it.

Seems like if you ever bring up anything that is challenging or different to the way things are done everyone runs the other way or hides. I know I can be annoying, long winded, and argumentative at points but I think I have put some decently thought provoking posts on here that have a ton of views and hardly any responses. Only people like you and charlest seem to really care what is really going on.

and whoever puts the +1 about my annoying and long winded comment.. I applaud your sense of humor : )
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

tenpinspro · « **Reply #13 on:** February 23, 2009, 05:04:00 PM »

Hey J_w,

It just dawned on me as to where you "might" get an answer to your question or possibly even more in depth. I believe that a majority of manufacturers still buy their base covers from BASF and/or Bayer Corp. You'll get a better detail of information seeing as this would be coming from the horses mouth so to speak.

The only thing I see though is that the information and formulas produced has to be proprietary and/or copyrighted. Just thought I'd share bud...
--------------------
Rick Leong - Ten Pins Pro Shop
Tag Team Coaching - Co-Founder
"El" Presidente of the Legion

charlest · « **Reply #14 on:** February 23, 2009, 05:38:01 PM »

J-W73 wrote:

quote:

Only people like you and charlest seem to really care what is really going on.

Thanks for the compliment. My war to get some facts about such things across to the "people" seems to fall on deaf (or ego-sensitve) ears about 90% of the time.

Look at this thread: "Mega Friction = Particle???"
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=229073&ForumID=1&CategoryID=2

One of the theories I try to get across (ok, sometimes I do get preachy) is that the ball's construction makes little ultimate difference. It is its basic designed-in ball reaction that makes THE difference to the bowler. This guy tried to say he wants to buy the Mega-Friction, a high load particle ball, but won't because he has not had positive experiences with particle balls. I gave him a brief and slightly caustic: "Buy a ball reaction, not a ball." routine.

He got really testy about it and told me to shut up and go away. Now Rick (tenpinspro) and others explain in detail about particle balls being anything you need them to be. He sees ball videos and listens to others' experiences, and NOW, NOW, he wants to buy or is leaning more towards the Mega-Friction (MF, for short

).

I want to tell him off, Big Time, but it's just not worth the grief and aggravation. Now that someone had lead him by the nose, now he is inclined to believe what I said orginally. But this whole topic has been rehashed dozens of times int he past and will be done again and again, for people who refuse to listen and to learn.

Sigh ...

I understand where you're coming from about the stuff oozing from balls. I don't think we'll ever get a straight answer we can all live with. Sometimes, we just have to let go, accept what we have and look for new answers to other questions. Ball baths, Revivior, CPR, Hook Again, Diswashers, all seem to help alleviate the symptoms, whatever the cause actually is.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Edited on 2/23/2009 6:40 PM

Author Topic: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil? (Read 8841 times)

J_w73

Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

DON DRAPER

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

86camaroman

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

charlest

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

J_w73

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

tenpinspro

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

J_w73

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

tenpinspro

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J_w73

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

J_w73

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

J_w73

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

J_w73

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

tenpinspro

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?

charlest

Re: Oil Extraction ?? Is it all oil?