win a ball from Bowling.com

Author Topic: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon  (Read 37554 times)

NewInBox

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« on: April 09, 2009, 06:57:29 AM »
Just thought I would pass this on. I asked Roto-Grip whether they recommended Abralon over Scotch-brite and this is the answer I got:

They work, but not as effectively as abralon. For our official stance on surface alterations I will include a short essay I’ve written on the subject…

 

Thank you for contacting us with your concern. As far as ball reaction is concerned, we have several recommendations to maintain ball performance and life, but the primary area of concern is with the surface topography of the ball. As a quick over-view, surface topography in the bowling industry has been measured with specific ‘Ra’ and ‘Rs’ standards. These values directly relate to how aggressive the coverstock is and how much friction the coverstock can generate. The Ra value measures the standard deviations above or below the surface of the ball. For example, a series of high peaks and low valleys would be measured with an extremely high Ra value. Likewise, the Great Plains with a relatively smooth landscape and rolling hills would have a low Ra value. Rs isn’t as important, but by definition is the average distance between each individual peaks.

 

The reason these numbers are important is because of the correlation between ball reaction and high Ra and Rs values. Essentially, the greater the Ra and Rs number, the more friction the coverstock can generate. The more friction the coverstock can generate, the greater hook potential the ball will have. What happens when a ball dies is the coverstock has lost the surface deviations originally found on the ball from the out of box finish. These deviations (high Ra and Rs numbers) are created in our finishing and rounding process by creating deep grooves, cuts, and scars on the surface of ball. Later, when the ball is finished, these rough surface deviations are smoothed and ‘polished’ but they aren’t completely removed. If you were to then examine the coverstock on a micron level, the steep peaks and valleys would still be on the surface of the ball, but they would be rounded. This creates the type of ball motion where the ball will still skid through the heads and midlanes cleanly, but still have a tremendous amount of friction generation capabilities as the ball enters the buff or exits the pattern.

 

However, as the ball encounters normal use, these peaks slowly flatten and the valleys collapse. If measured after normal use, the once high Ra and Rs numbers would be much lower than the previous out of box finish. Hence, the ball slowly loses ball reaction with each use. Cleaning the surface will help keep the ball reaction consistent and also break down lane oil, but it isn’t capable of restoring original out of box Ra and Rs values. Luckily, our research has found a fairly simple method to restore the out of box finish.

 

In order to restore these numbers, abralon pads are recommended for virtually every ball in our current or past production line. The easiest and fastest way to refinish the ball is to use a 360 grit abralon pad on the ball. If the ball is being finished by machine, 60 seconds is usually sufficient whereas other methods may take longer. The whole idea is to thoroughly, cut, scar and groove the surface of the ball with the 360 grit pad. Before finishing the 360 grit, make sure the entire surface of the ball has been evenly cut. If it is done by hand or by a ball spinner, a cross-hatch finish is recommended. For the next stage, very lightly sand the surface with a 500 grit abralon pad. This will lower the Ra and Rs values slightly, but it isn’t going to completely destroy the surface deviations created from the previous stage.

 

After the ball has been lightly sanded with 500 grit abralon, please skip directly to the original out of box finish. For example a 4000 grit finish, no polish would require using a 360 grit abralon pad, then light application of a 500 abralon pad finally, skip the 1000 and 2000 stages and go directly to the 4000 finish. The 360 and 500 grit abralon pads will reproduce the original deep grooves and cuts from the factory rounding and finishing process setting the foundation for the final finish. Then, by skipping directly to the 4000 grit abralon stage, the surface will be smoothed and ‘polished’ without destroying the surface deviations. This effectively leaves the surface with the high peaks and deep valleys, but they aren’t as sharp or jagged. This should restore the original ball reaction allowing the ball to skid on oil, read the lighter buff areas of the pattern and still have amazing recovery potential on the backend.

 

For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls. The trick to the polish application is to use less polish and very light pressure. Step 2 Finishing Compound has a resurfacing medium in it that sands the ball while it is being polished over-application of the compound will effectively destroy the same surface deviations that originally gave the ball it’s strong out of box finish.

 

The key to restoring any finish is deeply cutting the ball with the fresh 360 grit abralon pad and then very lightly applying a 500 grit pad. The same is true of the final step as well. Over-application of the 1000, 2000, or 4000 grit pads can destroy the surface deviations created by the 360 and 500 steps weakening the over-all ball reaction.

 

Hopefully, if the sanding process has been repeated successfully, the end results will yield a ball with nearly the exact same Ra and Rs values originally found on the out of box finish restoring life back into the ball.
--------------------
<font face=''Georgia''>No matter where you go, there you are.</font id=''Georgia''>

Edited on 4/9/2009 2:58 PM

 

Oldskool2

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 111
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #46 on: April 13, 2009, 04:35:02 PM »
Absolutely right. I don't think OOB finish is very important. If I don't like it, I change it until it's right.

But, I want to know how the oob finish was reached, because only then you know what to do for a change in reaction you need.



Edited on 4/13/2009 4:35 PM

Jay

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1312
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #47 on: April 13, 2009, 06:27:27 PM »
So after 500 Abralon, if you continue to go up in steps, are you effectively killing the ball over time or is it just more tame if you were to have a 4000 Abralon finish in steps as opposed to the way in the article?

A couple other questions.  Do you still need to go through this process if you just want to refresh the cover(say with a 2000 grit pad)?  On that note, when is refreshing necessary if the ball wasn't polished?  I usually don't bother to reapply the finish that was there before and just let the lane shine stay because it'll be back after a few games anyways.  My last question is, what is meant by "lightly sanding with a 500 grit pad," and do you do the same with the desired finish or sand normally but for less time(since they say over-application can destroy the surface deviations created)?


Edited on 4/13/2009 7:02 PM

rvmark

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 803
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #48 on: April 13, 2009, 06:55:25 PM »
Sometimes OOB finish does match up on a ball with a particular bowler and they would like to be able to reduplicate it with that ball.  If you looked at the old way that was posted by Storm and Roto Grip to reach a particular surface it required following the steps up in sequence and in this case that is not what is needed to achieve the desired result.  IMO it is easy to understand some of the frustrations expressed by those like charlest.  I for one have a Grand Illusion that got damaged the third week of league this year, the proshop ground out and replugged a major gouge and resurfaced the ball, it was not reacting the way it had before and quite honestly with this ball the OOB was the reaction I was looking for, I had tried several different grit levels with polish to try and reduplicate the reaction I wanted.  Just this past weekend after reading the posting I followed the directions with my spinner and abralon pads and presto it is giving the reaction that I had been searching for.  While I do not always like the OOB in this case I do, therefor I feel this post i quite relevant and I appreciate NewInBox posting.  Sorry if this got a little long.

Mark

Tom

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 150
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #49 on: April 13, 2009, 10:37:27 PM »
Excellent information, It makes me wonder how other manufactures
are truly creating their out of box finishes. This technique
would definitely save some money on Abralon pads.

dballz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2009, 09:15:46 AM »
this is great information. i am going to try that on some of my nuggets and see what the difference may be. when i cleaned up a ball, i used each pad, 360, 500, 1k, and so on, until i got to the surface i wanted.

i know 4k is a smooth pad, but did question a little as to why it did push so long. this could be why or it may just be me. lol!!

NewInBox, thanks for asking the question and also relaying the response you received.

spmcgivern

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2079
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2009, 09:48:19 AM »
As many have said, there was confusion on what the OOB surface is.  Many a time I have tried to duplicate OOB surfaces for people and have had little luck, making me look like I don't know what I am doing.  A pro-shop operator will definitely get the average joe to come in with his ball looking to get it back to "the way it used to work".  If you can't reproduce that reaction, you have the chance of that average joe to go elsewhere.  Resurfacing is a tool used to enhance customer relations of the pro-shop owner.  When the OOB surface is correctly achieved, there is satisfaction to the owner of the ball and also the pro-shop owner because now, he has a happy customer.

Another side note, how much of this is marketing?  If I sell a bowling ball going through the previously perceived method of sanding and stop at 2000 Abralon, I get a particular reaction.  But if I skip a couple of steps along the way, and jump to 2000 Abralon, or even 4000 Abralon, I can now advertise a 2000 Abralon ball that out-hooks other 2000 Abralon balls.  I have seen in previous posts people comparing different company's balls based on the finished grit.  Now those numbers are in a different context.
--------------------
I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

dballz

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 356
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2009, 11:52:52 AM »
spmcgivern does have a good point regarding getting the proper finish on the ball for the customer and keeping them happy.

one thing that could be done, even though it will be more work for the pro shops, is to document the steps used for the resurface of each ball for a customer. put down what the shop did to achieve those previous results.

so if the customer brings in a rogue and sauce and wants them like they had before, then the shop can look at what they did the last time. this will help save time of re-doing the surface again, will keep the customer satisfied, and hopefully bring in repeat business as well as new business.

like i said, it will definitely be more work for the shops, but it will help keep the customers satisfied, and that right there is the bottom line.


MI 2 AZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8157
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #53 on: April 18, 2009, 03:26:12 PM »
quote:
You want to get down to brass tacks on how to duplicate a ball surface or any other surface, buy one of the many instruments available to measure ra and rs of any surface. No guesswork after that.


I guess I missed where the manufacturers are providing that info (ra and rs of all their ball surfaces) to the bowlers.  Could you post a few links?  Thanks.



--------------------

I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________

New to BR? - Please check this:  BR FAQ
_________________________________________
Six decades of league bowling and still learning.

ABC/USBC Lifetime Member since Aug 1995.

Perfect Approach Pro Shop

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 339
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #54 on: April 19, 2009, 12:30:46 AM »
This is what makes this site worthwhile. Thanks for the post.
--------------------
J. Helton
Perfect Approach Pro Shop
J. Helton
Perfect Approach Pro Shop

MI 2 AZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8157
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #55 on: April 19, 2009, 01:24:02 AM »
quote:
you don't need the manufacturer's specs if you have one of the machines.


Well, I've never been accused of being overly bright, so you will have to help me understand how this works.  If a bowler brings in his old ball to his proshop and says he wants the original OOB finish restored, how does this instrument that reads the ra and rs help give that original OOB finish data to the proshop operator?  

I could understand if the proshop had one of every ball ever made in stock and used that instrument to read the info off of an original finish ball, but let's assume that my local proshop is not that well stocked with every ball out there.  Without getting that info from the manufacturer, how does that instrument provide the necessary data?  

As far as I know (and remember, you're dealing with a pretty dim light bulb here), that ra and rs info is something that only recently came out from some report that USBC recently released, so I'm not sure that every proshop is going to be equipped to read that info.  If I am incorrect (99-44/100% chance of that), let me be corrected by the many proshop operators reading this.

Thanks for any additional info.  All of this has been very educational for me.



--------------------

I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________

New to BR? - Please check this:  BR FAQ
_________________________________________
Six decades of league bowling and still learning.

ABC/USBC Lifetime Member since Aug 1995.

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #56 on: April 19, 2009, 12:08:14 PM »
zfennell -- Great point:

 
quote:
however, it seems the vast majority would be just as happy if the manufacturer simply explained how they finished the ball in the first place.



Equipment to measure Ra/Rs values in proshops for the most part is science fiction. It would be a nice addition, but I've never interacted with a proshop that has that capability. As has been mentioned by several, I'd be happy just for the explanation of how the balls are finished in the first place. More important, we need to understand how, with the spinner, pads and polishes at our disposal, a proshop or weekend warrior can come close to the original finish.

The original response shared is fantastic. Through trial and error I've found that maintaining much of the lower grit finish seems to be more effective for me, regardless if the final application is polish or 4000 grit abralon. It's good to find real validation of that finding.

NewInBox

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 68
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #57 on: April 20, 2009, 09:23:27 AM »
Wow, I never thought I was starting the "Great Bowling debate of 2009". I really figured this was more commonly known information, and I was just posting the information for the newer bowling enthusiasts like me. Prior to this posting I did not even know what Ra and RS values were. It is nice to know I came across information that was so well received though, even if it has sparked some heated debates.
--------------------
No matter where you go, there you are.

MI 2 AZ

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 8157
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #58 on: April 20, 2009, 03:28:34 PM »
NewInBox, if I did not thank you earlier, that was my oversight.

Thanks for posting RotoGrip's reply.  I have found it to be very useful and informative.  It contained information that I was unaware of but now explains a lot of what I was doing wrong in trying to replicate some OOB finishes.



--------------------

I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
_________________________________________

New to BR? - Please check this:  BR FAQ
_________________________________________
Six decades of league bowling and still learning.

ABC/USBC Lifetime Member since Aug 1995.

Steven

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 7680
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #59 on: April 21, 2009, 09:32:35 AM »
quote:
I do agree with CRD that such measurements are in fact 'applied' science and not 'science fiction'.
 


To clarify, I said the existence of these machines in mainstream proshops is science fiction. I've done google searches on Ra/Rs surface measurement equipment for proshops, and I'm not seeing anything. If I'm wrong on this, I'd like to be corrected.

At a practical level, outside the factory, cover restoration is still as much an art as it is a science. Even with a machine such as the Storm Surface Factory (which btw, is very effective), it's only as good as the freshness of the abralon pads being used. It's almost impossible for a human to apply the force, pressure and time with the precision of a manufacturer's cover preparation process. That's why these conversations are important -- to help get as close as we can and know it.

Edited on 4/21/2009 10:53 AM

Nor Cal Bowler

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1535
Re: Roto Grips take on Scotch-Brite VS Abralon
« Reply #60 on: April 21, 2009, 10:16:36 AM »
quote:
quote:
It would be nice if companies would be more open on finishing of their product. I know with Visionary they go from 600 grit to remove the excess putty they use to fill in the logos then they go right to the finish of the ball. For example the Gladiator Solid is at 2000 abralon. It goes from 600 grit right to 2000 abralon with nothing else going inbetween.
--------------------
Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
_______________________________________________

http://s450.photobucket.com/albums/qq229/NorCalBowler/visionary/


NorCal,

Your comparison is not appropriate. 600 grit US, the green pad, is roughly 1200 grit FEPA or P1200 grit. 2000 Abralon is P2000 grit. Going from P1200 to P2000 is normal. Usually we go from 1000 Abralon to a 2000 Abralon pad, which is a bigger jump.

This is extremely different from going from 500 Abralon to 4000 abralon. That is a huge jump.
--------------------
"None are so blind as those who will not see."


Charlest,

Wasn't making a comparison between that but was just saying how Visionary finishes their stuff before it goes out, RG/storm have their way, and ebonite international have their way. I figured i'd offer what I know to help out...



--------------------
Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
_______________________________________________

http://s450.photobucket.com/albums/qq229/NorCalBowler/visionary/