Post by: NewInBox on April 09, 2009, 06:57:29 AM
They work, but not as effectively as abralon. For our official stance on surface alterations I will include a short essay I’ve written on the subject…
Thank you for contacting us with your concern. As far as ball reaction is concerned, we have several recommendations to maintain ball performance and life, but the primary area of concern is with the surface topography of the ball. As a quick over-view, surface topography in the bowling industry has been measured with specific ‘Ra’ and ‘Rs’ standards. These values directly relate to how aggressive the coverstock is and how much friction the coverstock can generate. The Ra value measures the standard deviations above or below the surface of the ball. For example, a series of high peaks and low valleys would be measured with an extremely high Ra value. Likewise, the Great Plains with a relatively smooth landscape and rolling hills would have a low Ra value. Rs isn’t as important, but by definition is the average distance between each individual peaks.
The reason these numbers are important is because of the correlation between ball reaction and high Ra and Rs values. Essentially, the greater the Ra and Rs number, the more friction the coverstock can generate. The more friction the coverstock can generate, the greater hook potential the ball will have. What happens when a ball dies is the coverstock has lost the surface deviations originally found on the ball from the out of box finish. These deviations (high Ra and Rs numbers) are created in our finishing and rounding process by creating deep grooves, cuts, and scars on the surface of ball. Later, when the ball is finished, these rough surface deviations are smoothed and ‘polished’ but they aren’t completely removed. If you were to then examine the coverstock on a micron level, the steep peaks and valleys would still be on the surface of the ball, but they would be rounded. This creates the type of ball motion where the ball will still skid through the heads and midlanes cleanly, but still have a tremendous amount of friction generation capabilities as the ball enters the buff or exits the pattern.
However, as the ball encounters normal use, these peaks slowly flatten and the valleys collapse. If measured after normal use, the once high Ra and Rs numbers would be much lower than the previous out of box finish. Hence, the ball slowly loses ball reaction with each use. Cleaning the surface will help keep the ball reaction consistent and also break down lane oil, but it isn’t capable of restoring original out of box Ra and Rs values. Luckily, our research has found a fairly simple method to restore the out of box finish.
In order to restore these numbers, abralon pads are recommended for virtually every ball in our current or past production line. The easiest and fastest way to refinish the ball is to use a 360 grit abralon pad on the ball. If the ball is being finished by machine, 60 seconds is usually sufficient whereas other methods may take longer. The whole idea is to thoroughly, cut, scar and groove the surface of the ball with the 360 grit pad. Before finishing the 360 grit, make sure the entire surface of the ball has been evenly cut. If it is done by hand or by a ball spinner, a cross-hatch finish is recommended. For the next stage, very lightly sand the surface with a 500 grit abralon pad. This will lower the Ra and Rs values slightly, but it isn’t going to completely destroy the surface deviations created from the previous stage.
After the ball has been lightly sanded with 500 grit abralon, please skip directly to the original out of box finish. For example a 4000 grit finish, no polish would require using a 360 grit abralon pad, then light application of a 500 abralon pad finally, skip the 1000 and 2000 stages and go directly to the 4000 finish. The 360 and 500 grit abralon pads will reproduce the original deep grooves and cuts from the factory rounding and finishing process setting the foundation for the final finish. Then, by skipping directly to the 4000 grit abralon stage, the surface will be smoothed and ‘polished’ without destroying the surface deviations. This effectively leaves the surface with the high peaks and deep valleys, but they aren’t as sharp or jagged. This should restore the original ball reaction allowing the ball to skid on oil, read the lighter buff areas of the pattern and still have amazing recovery potential on the backend.
For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls. The trick to the polish application is to use less polish and very light pressure. Step 2 Finishing Compound has a resurfacing medium in it that sands the ball while it is being polished over-application of the compound will effectively destroy the same surface deviations that originally gave the ball it’s strong out of box finish.
The key to restoring any finish is deeply cutting the ball with the fresh 360 grit abralon pad and then very lightly applying a 500 grit pad. The same is true of the final step as well. Over-application of the 1000, 2000, or 4000 grit pads can destroy the surface deviations created by the 360 and 500 steps weakening the over-all ball reaction.
Hopefully, if the sanding process has been repeated successfully, the end results will yield a ball with nearly the exact same Ra and Rs values originally found on the out of box finish restoring life back into the ball.
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<font face=''Georgia''>No matter where you go, there you are.</font id=''Georgia''>
Edited on 4/9/2009 2:58 PM
Post by: charlest on April 09, 2009, 03:14:38 PM
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 4/9/2009 3:16 PM
Post by: rge on April 09, 2009, 03:19:24 PM
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Rats get fat. Good men die.
Post by: azguy on April 09, 2009, 03:28:59 PM
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az guy aka: R & L Bowlers Pro
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Post by: slap on April 09, 2009, 06:14:44 PM
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"Student of the Game"
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Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on April 09, 2009, 09:49:03 PM
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Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
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Post by: LaneHammer20 on April 09, 2009, 09:53:49 PM
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What is sandbagging???
Post by: LaneHammer20 on April 09, 2009, 09:54:33 PM
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What is sandbagging???
Post by: mrgriswold on April 09, 2009, 10:17:35 PM
quote:
One of the best written and informative articles I've seen on abralon vs scotch-brite pads.
+1
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Post by: BackToBasics on April 09, 2009, 10:24:15 PM
Now let me go try it on one of my Cells...
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Anthony Chapman
Roto Grip Staff 2009
Vise Grips Staff 2009
Post by: raiderh20boy on April 09, 2009, 10:28:52 PM
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Use "IT" and BOWL UP A STORM!!
Post by: Lillen on April 09, 2009, 11:01:30 PM
quote:
What is a cross hatch finish?
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What is sandbagging???
http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Resurfacing_Tips/resurfacing.html
Post by: charlest on April 10, 2009, 12:42:05 AM
quote:
A customer came in and told me this a while back after he hit his virtual gravity with a 4000 pad and it was nowhere close to what it was out of box. He called storm and this was what they suggested. This works great to restore the virtual to it's out of box reaction.
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Indeed!
Seems like they shuld never have termed the Virtual Gravity or the Rogue Cell a 4000 grit Abralon finish ball. The 4000 Ab pad just attempts to slight smooth out the 500 grit Abralon finish. A true 4000 pad would have all the 500 Abralon lines smoothed out by the 1000 Abralon pad, it would be smoothed out by the 2000 grit Abralon pad. That is the normal sequence. The previous rougher sanding lines are smoothed by the next one.
The VG and the Rogue are really 500 grit Abralon "smoothed". Fairly rough indeed.
This is not a good thing nor a bad thing. Well, it's bad in that they never told us this before and they should have. This changes everyhhing with respect to RG, Storm, and probably AZO balls and their stock finishes. Better late than never.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 4/10/2009 1:00 AM
Post by: MI 2 AZ on April 10, 2009, 02:36:10 AM
quote:
This changes everyhhing with respect to RG, Storm, and probably AZO balls and their stock finishes.
I wonder how many others?
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I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
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Post by: completebowler on April 10, 2009, 03:44:09 AM
Pretty cool of them I thought. Sorry I didn't share it as I thought that I was the one out of the loop at the time and it was common resurfacing practice. I had always gone the route charlest spoke of going up one step at a time.
Since knowing this and trying it out as well as having bought some Valentino pads I have been able to tweak my covers with much greater precision. I am doing it to all the other manufacturers balls too.
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"The rule is perfect. In all matters of opinion our advesaries are insane". Mark Twain
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Post by: NewInBox on April 10, 2009, 10:31:58 AM
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No matter where you go, there you are.
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on April 10, 2009, 12:04:45 PM
quote:
ok just did it to my hyroad and virtual that I got used so we'll see how it works!
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Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
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Ok I threw them last night and liked them both. The virtual looked like it did out of box. I think all companies do a varient of this. I mean look how much of a matte finish on ebonite's equipment. No way did they go through all the steps to accomplish that finish on let's say a Black Widow solid.
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Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on April 10, 2009, 12:55:13 PM
quote:
I guess this is the bowling ball equivalent of
snow tires vs racing slicks.
As much smmoth surface as possible with grooves deep enough to displace the oil/water/snow.
the rubber still needs to be in contact with the road
when its time to turn the corner.
its also very similar to Brunswick's official recipe for restoring their Rough Buff surfaced balls
It would be nice if companies would be more open on finishing of their product. I know with Visionary they go from 600 grit to remove the excess putty they use to fill in the logos then they go right to the finish of the ball. For example the Gladiator Solid is at 2000 abralon. It goes from 600 grit right to 2000 abralon with nothing else going inbetween.
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Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
_______________________________________________
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Post by: ccrider on April 10, 2009, 01:17:00 PM
I wonder what other secrets are out there that we do not know about, or are making false assumptions about.
CC
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Those that can do. Those that can't complain. Pimpin ain't easy, but it's mandatory.
Most things we like, we don't need. Most things we need, we don't like. Don't confuse your likes with your needs.
Post by: NewInBox on April 10, 2009, 02:30:46 PM
quote:
overall an excellant bit of info.
However, w/o wishing to beat a dead horse, i like to repeat my question?
In what manner do you believe this is a comparison between Abralon and Skotch-Brite?
Well Z I suppose it is not exactly a comparison. I asked the Question of Roto-Grip and got the above reply. While it was not an exact answer to my question I found it very useful information, my take on their implied intent of the response is, Abralon is a better finisher than Scotch-Brite. Not my opinion but I take it as their recommendation.
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No matter where you go, there you are.
Post by: Oldskool2 on April 11, 2009, 05:01:19 AM
I never really understood why a ball couldn't be resurfaced at the box 4000 without losing performance, even after moderate use. I just blamed it at the coverstock losing it's "edge". Now I know why.
I think this is info that most pro-shop owners didn't even know and I think that is a bad thing. We "all" used the procedure by going up step by step and now this appears to be wrong on some of the equipment.
The way how "we" resurface has been discussed a lot on here, but never someone from a ball company jumped in and told us this. Not a good thing either.
Even on the sheet that comes with the ball, Storm says you have to work up to 600 grit(U.S.) before Step #2. 600 grit U.S. is approx. 1000 Abralon. Now they state this:For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls..
Maybe it's different for Storm compared to RG, but I find that hard to believe.
Thanks for sharing this info and for doing what the companies should have done. It's not like giving away the formula for the resin.
All the best.
Post by: charlest on April 11, 2009, 09:54:29 AM
My feelings EXACTLY!
plus the finish on balls like the Rogue Cell and the Virtual Gravily should not be listed as "4000 grit Abralon". That is so misleading as to be lying.
Small wonder so many people feel confused, almost betrayed when they re-finish such balls and the reaction is nowhere near what it was out-of-the-box.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 4/11/2009 9:54 AM
Post by: charlest on April 11, 2009, 09:58:20 AM
quote:
It would be nice if companies would be more open on finishing of their product. I know with Visionary they go from 600 grit to remove the excess putty they use to fill in the logos then they go right to the finish of the ball. For example the Gladiator Solid is at 2000 abralon. It goes from 600 grit right to 2000 abralon with nothing else going inbetween.
--------------------
Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
_______________________________________________
http://s450.photobucket.com/albums/qq229/NorCalBowler/visionary/
NorCal,
Your comparison is not appropriate. 600 grit US, the green pad, is roughly 1200 grit FEPA or P1200 grit. 2000 Abralon is P2000 grit. Going from P1200 to P2000 is normal. Usually we go from 1000 Abralon to a 2000 Abralon pad, which is a bigger jump.
This is extremely different from going from 500 Abralon to 4000 abralon. That is a huge jump.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: SKIDSNAP on April 11, 2009, 10:22:56 AM
Just because convention was that you progressed up the surface chain to finish at 4000 doesn't mean that was the processed being used. How about the up the surface progression chain being misleading?
I have often stopped at 800 before applying polish. Or am I wrong and I should have gone all the way to 4000 before applying polish? Guess what they all work in context!!!!
Post by: Raven829 on April 11, 2009, 10:45:12 AM
quote:
It is not misleading.... it is in fact the final applied surface... how is that misleading?
Just because convention was that you progressed up the surface chain to finish at 4000 doesn't mean that was the processed being used. How about the up the surface progression chain being misleading?
I have often stopped at 800 before applying polish. Or am I wrong and I should have gone all the way to 4000 before applying polish? Guess what they all work in context!!!!
You're completely missing the point. It is misleading because 4000 Abralon after stepping up with all the sequential pads is TOTALLY different than 4000 Abralon after a light 500 Abralon. These manufacturers knew that most pro shops followed all the steps in between yet chose to say nothing.
Why can't all the ball makers just come out and give the information that was in the OP's post? When a home user or pro shop is trying to achieve that OOB reaction, wouldn't you agree that it is essential to know how the manufacturer got it themselves? I can throw 4000 on top of anything, but that doesn't mean that I'm going to get to OOB of a particular ball that is listed as finished at 4000. We need the manufacturers to come clean on this information.
Don
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"You cannot change the stripes of a leopard."
~Emmitt Smith
Edited on 4/11/2009 10:46 AM
Post by: charlest on April 11, 2009, 12:38:12 PM
quote:
It is not misleading.... it is in fact the final applied surface... how is that misleading?
[/quote
Because it is NOT the final surface. 4000 grit Abralon sandings cannot smooth out the 500 grit sanding lines. Therefore the surface is NOT at 4000 grit Abralon.
{quote]
Just because convention was that you progressed up the surface chain to finish at 4000 doesn't mean that was the processed being used. How about the up the surface progression chain being misleading?
Because the 500 grit sanding lines are still there and have not been smoothed out. Saying the surface is 4000 grit Abralon is false, becaue it is not at P4000 grit.
quote:
I have often stopped at 800 before applying polish. Or am I wrong and I should have gone all the way to 4000 before applying polish? Guess what they all work in context!!!!
As the final owner of the ball, you can do whatever you like to achieve the ball reaction you need/want. Telling us the final surface is P4000 grit is lying if it is not the real surface, which, in truth, is a new blending of P500 and P4000 grit.
As Oldskool2 said, doing the ball this way is not good or bad. It is quite interesting to me. NOT telling us what they did (until now) is bad. It's like false advertising. Saying the surface is 4000 grit Abralon says that all previous sanding lines have been smoothed out using the appropriate abrasive until the last one used is 4000 grit Abralon.
It is not that this is the way it has always been done. This is a standardized preocedure for sanding anything.
Change is good. I have no problem with it, for a good purpose. I think this new way is very inventive. But tell us the truth.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 4/11/2009 12:40 PM
Post by: rvmark on April 11, 2009, 12:48:35 PM
quote:quote:
It is not misleading.... it is in fact the final applied surface... how is that misleading?
[/quote
Because it is NOT the final surface. 4000 grit Abralon sandings cannot smooth out the 500 grit sanding lines. Therefore the surface is NOT at 4000 grit Abralon.
{quote]
Just because convention was that you progressed up the surface chain to finish at 4000 doesn't mean that was the processed being used. How about the up the surface progression chain being misleading?
+1
Mark
Because the 500 grit sanding lines are still there and have not been smoothed out. Saying the surface is 4000 grit Abralon is false, becaue it is not at P4000 grit.quote:
I have often stopped at 800 before applying polish. Or am I wrong and I should have gone all the way to 4000 before applying polish? Guess what they all work in context!!!!
As the final owner of the ball, you can do whatever you like to achieve the ball reaction you need/want. Telling us the final surface is P4000 grit is lying if it is not the real surface, which, in truth, is a new blending of P500 and P4000 grit.
As Oldskool2 said, doing the ball this way is not good or bad. It is quite interesting to me. NOT telling us what they did (until now) is bad. It's like false advertising. Saying the surface is 4000 grit Abralon says that all previous sanding lines have been smoothed out using the appropriate abrasive until the last one used is 4000 grit Abralon.
It is not that this is the way it has always been done. This is a standardized preocedure for sanding anything.
Change is good. I have no problem with it, for a good purpose. I think this new way is very inventive. But tell us the truth.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 4/11/2009 12:40 PM
Post by: icewall on April 11, 2009, 02:53:59 PM
i look forward to trying this out on my brothers black widow.
makes sense why (as already stated) ebonites 4000 grit OOB surface seems so dull compared to a step up each grit to 4000.
you learn something new everyday!
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Visionary Test Staff 08/09
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Post by: lefty50 on April 11, 2009, 06:32:28 PM
And I also totally agree that they aren't giving away the formula, why in heaven's name would they mislead so badly like it was a state secret? Unreal. Clearly this changes my approach to sanding....
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature...
Post by: vilecanards on April 11, 2009, 07:10:51 PM
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r.k.wolfe
Edited on 4/11/2009 7:12 PM
Post by: J_Mac on April 11, 2009, 07:18:55 PM
Post by: SKIDSNAP on April 11, 2009, 09:31:00 PM
Just because nobosy bothered to ask doesn't mean that the information wasn't available...
The fact that you might feel foolish or that you just found out that the easter bunny is actually a turtle (topical metaphor) might hurt your pride ...but it is just the way the manufacturer chose to get things done.
Who was the one that told any of us that we had to progressively go up the scale to finish the ball. Maybe they were the ones misleading us. They were the liars... The need to be drawn and quartered. MAYBE this is a better way.
Not to mention that whatever the end user does to the ball changes the surface makes the box finish moot. AND how come none of us were smart enough to try it ????????
Post by: charlest on April 11, 2009, 09:43:40 PM
quote:
GUYS GUYS GUYS.... Why are you treating this as a conspiracy????
Just because nobosy bothered to ask doesn't mean that the information wasn't available...
The fact that you might feel foolish or that you just found out that the easter bunny is actually a turtle (topical metaphor) might hurt your pride ...but it is just the way the manufacturer chose to get things done.
Who was the one that told any of us that we had to progressively go up the scale to finish the ball. Maybe they were the ones misleading us. They were the liars... The need to be drawn and quartered. MAYBE this is a better way.
Not to mention that whatever the end user does to the ball changes the surface makes the box finish moot. AND how come none of us were smart enough to try it ????????
Ok, fine. The Manufacturers are perfect and no one should ever doubt their word on anything ever again. Let's all be perfect sheep and follow the Pied Piper down Broadway. Oh, listen to the sweet music!
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Maine Man on April 11, 2009, 09:48:38 PM
--------------------
James Goulding
Moores Pro Shop
Bowler 2 Bowler Blog: http://bowler2bowler.wordpress.com
State Site: http://www.msusbc-maine.org
Local Link: www.lausbca.org
Post by: jbuzz31 on April 11, 2009, 09:50:27 PM
quote:
GUYS GUYS GUYS.... Why are you treating this as a conspiracy????
Just because nobosy bothered to ask doesn't mean that the information wasn't available...
The fact that you might feel foolish or that you just found out that the easter bunny is actually a turtle (topical metaphor) might hurt your pride ...but it is just the way the manufacturer chose to get things done.
Who was the one that told any of us that we had to progressively go up the scale to finish the ball. Maybe they were the ones misleading us. They were the liars... The need to be drawn and quartered. MAYBE this is a better way.
Not to mention that whatever the end user does to the ball changes the surface makes the box finish moot. AND how come none of us were smart enough to try it ????????
Not that we beleive its a conspiracy. lets put this in an analogy and see if it makes sense to you.
You bought a new car. It supposedly runs on straight Biodiesel. You think sweet. it runs great. you finally run out of gas and have to fill up. but it never runs the same again. then a few months later you find out from the car company it was actually using a 50/50 blend of biodesel . And now you know why it ran so poorly.
Maybe this makes it easier for you to understand
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Ive Eaten From The Insane Root That Imprisons Reason
Post by: SKIDSNAP on April 11, 2009, 09:50:52 PM
As I said at the end of my last post. How come none of us had tried this before and reported?
The biggest reaction I have seen from the people I have told this to was "WOW why didn't we think of that???" and "DOH... makes sense"
Just because we were trained with one method and the manufacturer chose another way with what seems to be positive results does someone have to be a liar??? Does someone have to be wrong??? Isn't it just another way???
Post by: SKIDSNAP on April 11, 2009, 09:53:15 PM
Post by: jbuzz31 on April 11, 2009, 09:54:49 PM
quote:
I understand find and your analogy does not fit this example... especially since it was the manufacturer that just told you how the surface was prepared.
It does fit perfectly. Because the manufacture gave the whole story after the fact.
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Ive Eaten From The Insane Root That Imprisons Reason
Post by: SKIDSNAP on April 11, 2009, 09:59:07 PM
The car maker did not top off the tank in the car before you pulled away from the lot.
I know what you are trying to say.....trying to assess blame....whatever..
What do you want to happen. What is going to make you feel better? What is your remedy????
Post by: Skizriz on April 12, 2009, 02:07:14 PM
To me it seems as the OOB finish at 4000 grit isn't really 4000 grit, but 500 grit with the heavy stuff knocked off with a 4000 grit pad.
There's a big difference.
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"I want to die in my sleep like my grandfather....Not screaming and yelling like the passengers in his car"
Post by: SleepOnIce on April 12, 2009, 02:29:33 PM
quote:
I dont really have a horse in this race, just glad to hear what the big kids have to offer.
but just for giggles i took a peak at roto-grip's site.
their official position on ball refinishing:
http://www.rotogrip.com/products/balls/care/
Based on what has been discussed, it would be easy to interpret in a couple of ways. But it's really none of the above.
cut and past excerpt reads like this:
II Restoring Factory Finish:
1000 Grit Abralon:
Use a 500 Abralon pad to start with a *4 Step sanding process
Switch to a 1000 Grit Abralon pad and repeat the 4 Step sanding process
2000 Grit Abralon:
Same steps as above
Switch to a 2000 Grit Abralon pad and repeat the 4 Step sanding process
4000 Grit Abralon:
Same steps as above
Switch to a 4000 Grit Abralon pad and repeat the 4 Step sanding process
Edited on 4/12/2009 7:56 AM
It certainly reads like they mean to work your way up to 4000, which differs from what the email says.
I'm just going to say I'm confused, but I'll get over it.
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BLARGH
Rob Stone Supporters of America!
Post by: charlest on April 12, 2009, 09:33:46 PM
I need to say one more thing:
Trust is earned over hundreds, if not thousands of encounters or interactions between 2 people and between a business and a customer. Trust is to precious a commodity to be destroyed in a single bad experience. Given the precarious conditions of the bowling industry at this stage of economics, loss of trust is very bad thing.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Oldskool2 on April 13, 2009, 05:05:57 AM
Normally I wouldn't bother reacting to a post like yours, but since you don't have a clue what we are trying to say....
I don't see this as a conspiracy. Bowling is important for me, but not that important to think about it that way. The companies just gave info that is not correct and those who find such info important are saying this is not oke.
I didn't bother to ask about that info, because it was already given, only that info was not correct.
When sanding to a certain level( in this example P4000 ), there are general "rules" how to get there. The way of sanding in steps that are not to big and by this removing the lines of the previous steps is the way for every material. So nobody was a liar when they told this is the way to get to a certain level.
Why should I feel foolish? And don't even talk about pride, this has absolutely nothing to do with it. You are the one who is taking it this far.
In my opinion the P4000 grit is used as a alternative to polish on top of the P500 grit. It is still P500 grit, but the peaks are rounded by using the 4000 pad. So, 500 Abralon + 4000 Abralon, that is the way I see it.
I think They wanted the delayed reaction of a polished ball, without the over/under a polish can give you. So, yes it's a good idea and there is nothing wrong with it, except calling it 4000 grit Abralon.
Post by: SKIDSNAP on April 13, 2009, 02:08:25 PM
For the most part we agree...
I was speaking to people like Charlest who seems to have emotional re: "trust" issues. He is the one looking for the conspriacy and saying someone lied.
I am saying that is how it was done so be it. I am now educated that this will be the way I do it as well when working on these products. Move on....
Post by: taige690 on April 13, 2009, 04:21:00 PM
Post by: Oldskool2 on April 13, 2009, 04:35:02 PM
But, I want to know how the oob finish was reached, because only then you know what to do for a change in reaction you need.
Edited on 4/13/2009 4:35 PM
Post by: Jay on April 13, 2009, 06:27:27 PM
A couple other questions. Do you still need to go through this process if you just want to refresh the cover(say with a 2000 grit pad)? On that note, when is refreshing necessary if the ball wasn't polished? I usually don't bother to reapply the finish that was there before and just let the lane shine stay because it'll be back after a few games anyways. My last question is, what is meant by "lightly sanding with a 500 grit pad," and do you do the same with the desired finish or sand normally but for less time(since they say over-application can destroy the surface deviations created)?
Edited on 4/13/2009 7:02 PM
Post by: rvmark on April 13, 2009, 06:55:25 PM
Mark
Post by: Tom on April 13, 2009, 10:37:27 PM
are truly creating their out of box finishes. This technique
would definitely save some money on Abralon pads.
Post by: dballz on April 16, 2009, 09:15:46 AM
i know 4k is a smooth pad, but did question a little as to why it did push so long. this could be why or it may just be me. lol!!
NewInBox, thanks for asking the question and also relaying the response you received.
Post by: spmcgivern on April 16, 2009, 09:48:19 AM
Another side note, how much of this is marketing? If I sell a bowling ball going through the previously perceived method of sanding and stop at 2000 Abralon, I get a particular reaction. But if I skip a couple of steps along the way, and jump to 2000 Abralon, or even 4000 Abralon, I can now advertise a 2000 Abralon ball that out-hooks other 2000 Abralon balls. I have seen in previous posts people comparing different company's balls based on the finished grit. Now those numbers are in a different context.
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I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com
Post by: dballz on April 16, 2009, 11:52:52 AM
one thing that could be done, even though it will be more work for the pro shops, is to document the steps used for the resurface of each ball for a customer. put down what the shop did to achieve those previous results.
so if the customer brings in a rogue and sauce and wants them like they had before, then the shop can look at what they did the last time. this will help save time of re-doing the surface again, will keep the customer satisfied, and hopefully bring in repeat business as well as new business.
like i said, it will definitely be more work for the shops, but it will help keep the customers satisfied, and that right there is the bottom line.
Post by: MI 2 AZ on April 18, 2009, 03:26:12 PM
quote:
You want to get down to brass tacks on how to duplicate a ball surface or any other surface, buy one of the many instruments available to measure ra and rs of any surface. No guesswork after that.
I guess I missed where the manufacturers are providing that info (ra and rs of all their ball surfaces) to the bowlers. Could you post a few links? Thanks.
--------------------
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Post by: Perfect Approach Pro Shop on April 19, 2009, 12:30:46 AM
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J. Helton
Perfect Approach Pro Shop
Post by: MI 2 AZ on April 19, 2009, 01:24:02 AM
quote:
you don't need the manufacturer's specs if you have one of the machines.
Well, I've never been accused of being overly bright, so you will have to help me understand how this works. If a bowler brings in his old ball to his proshop and says he wants the original OOB finish restored, how does this instrument that reads the ra and rs help give that original OOB finish data to the proshop operator?
I could understand if the proshop had one of every ball ever made in stock and used that instrument to read the info off of an original finish ball, but let's assume that my local proshop is not that well stocked with every ball out there. Without getting that info from the manufacturer, how does that instrument provide the necessary data?
As far as I know (and remember, you're dealing with a pretty dim light bulb here), that ra and rs info is something that only recently came out from some report that USBC recently released, so I'm not sure that every proshop is going to be equipped to read that info. If I am incorrect (99-44/100% chance of that), let me be corrected by the many proshop operators reading this.
Thanks for any additional info. All of this has been very educational for me.
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
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Post by: Steven on April 19, 2009, 12:08:14 PM
quote:
however, it seems the vast majority would be just as happy if the manufacturer simply explained how they finished the ball in the first place.
Equipment to measure Ra/Rs values in proshops for the most part is science fiction. It would be a nice addition, but I've never interacted with a proshop that has that capability. As has been mentioned by several, I'd be happy just for the explanation of how the balls are finished in the first place. More important, we need to understand how, with the spinner, pads and polishes at our disposal, a proshop or weekend warrior can come close to the original finish.
The original response shared is fantastic. Through trial and error I've found that maintaining much of the lower grit finish seems to be more effective for me, regardless if the final application is polish or 4000 grit abralon. It's good to find real validation of that finding.
Post by: NewInBox on April 20, 2009, 09:23:27 AM
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No matter where you go, there you are.
Post by: MI 2 AZ on April 20, 2009, 03:28:34 PM
Thanks for posting RotoGrip's reply. I have found it to be very useful and informative. It contained information that I was unaware of but now explains a lot of what I was doing wrong in trying to replicate some OOB finishes.
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
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Post by: Steven on April 21, 2009, 09:32:35 AM
quote:
I do agree with CRD that such measurements are in fact 'applied' science and not 'science fiction'.
To clarify, I said the existence of these machines in mainstream proshops is science fiction. I've done google searches on Ra/Rs surface measurement equipment for proshops, and I'm not seeing anything. If I'm wrong on this, I'd like to be corrected.
At a practical level, outside the factory, cover restoration is still as much an art as it is a science. Even with a machine such as the Storm Surface Factory (which btw, is very effective), it's only as good as the freshness of the abralon pads being used. It's almost impossible for a human to apply the force, pressure and time with the precision of a manufacturer's cover preparation process. That's why these conversations are important -- to help get as close as we can and know it.
Edited on 4/21/2009 10:53 AM
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on April 21, 2009, 10:16:36 AM
quote:quote:
It would be nice if companies would be more open on finishing of their product. I know with Visionary they go from 600 grit to remove the excess putty they use to fill in the logos then they go right to the finish of the ball. For example the Gladiator Solid is at 2000 abralon. It goes from 600 grit right to 2000 abralon with nothing else going inbetween.
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Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
_______________________________________________
http://s450.photobucket.com/albums/qq229/NorCalBowler/visionary/
NorCal,
Your comparison is not appropriate. 600 grit US, the green pad, is roughly 1200 grit FEPA or P1200 grit. 2000 Abralon is P2000 grit. Going from P1200 to P2000 is normal. Usually we go from 1000 Abralon to a 2000 Abralon pad, which is a bigger jump.
This is extremely different from going from 500 Abralon to 4000 abralon. That is a huge jump.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Charlest,
Wasn't making a comparison between that but was just saying how Visionary finishes their stuff before it goes out, RG/storm have their way, and ebonite international have their way. I figured i'd offer what I know to help out...
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Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
_______________________________________________
http://s450.photobucket.com/albums/qq229/NorCalBowler/visionary/
Post by: scotts33 on April 21, 2009, 10:35:09 AM
Are you saying that Visionary uses a green scotch brite 600 and then finishes with final surface? What does Visionary use for 1500 polished?
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Scott
Post by: batbowler on April 21, 2009, 11:04:46 AM
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way he should go and when he is old he will "BOWL UP A STORM AND BE KING OF THEM ALL" and not turn from it."
Roto Grip - Storm : What else do you need?
Bruce Campbell
www.rotogrip.com
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Post by: icewall on April 21, 2009, 12:01:41 PM
you need a strong deep grit to start with and not destroy those deep grooves while stepping up (be that straight to 4000 or stepped up all the way)
even ebonite/hammer says that its crucial to start AT 500 abralon and then step up each abralon pad.
too many people see something like 600 grit scotchbrite and 500 abralon as close but they are not even close. if you "roughly" convert those to fepa or P standard thats 1200 grit compared to 500
--------------------
Visionary Test Staff 08/09
all visionary this year
blurple
ogre ss
glad.
glad. pearl
Post by: Cambumbo on April 21, 2009, 01:55:26 PM
Post by: crazyyankee on April 21, 2009, 06:25:32 PM
--------------------
Allen Greenberg
FOS lane 1 destroy's the pins.
cherry bomb
supernova xp
cobalt solid
enriched uranium
red xxxl buzzsaw
Post by: tuckingfenpin on April 21, 2009, 06:36:18 PM
quote:
i tried this with my cell and break s-75.cell reacts as new and it made my s-75 a beast.i hit my cell with 360 cross hatch then light 500 then light 2000.my s-75 break i hit with 180 then 360 then light 500 and light 2000.
--------------------
Allen Greenberg
FOS lane 1 destroy's the pins.
cherry bomb
supernova xp
cobalt solid
enriched uranium
red xxxl buzzsaw
I did the same thing to my Cell and it's a completely different ball then going from 500-1k-2k, crosshatching each grit. I get a much more defined mid read and a heck of a lot sharper of an angle on the backends..much like it was OOB
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Big B > *
Post by: Jay on April 21, 2009, 06:58:19 PM
Post by: crazyyankee on April 21, 2009, 07:21:33 PM
--------------------
Allen Greenberg
FOS lane 1 destroy's the pins.
cherry bomb
supernova xp
cobalt solid
enriched uranium
red xxxl buzzsaw
Post by: Nor Cal Bowler on April 22, 2009, 12:41:50 PM
quote:
Matt,
Are you saying that Visionary uses a green scotch brite 600 and then finishes with final surface? What does Visionary use for 1500 polished?
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Scott
Scott,
It's on a haus type machine I belive Jason said and using 600 grit buy nothing said about scotchbrite.
Then the ball is put on a machine that they made (luster king like) and is brought to 1500 with a rubbing compound in bar form. I use 600 grit on the shop haus machine with the cab brand sandpaper and use storm step 2 using small amounts of the compound on a damp towel, (with a spinner) apply light pressure, and remove excess with a microfiber towel or buffing cloth. That's the closest way I have figured out to get the visionary OOB reaction.
--------------------
Visionary Test Staff Member and owner of every worldwide Visionary release...
_______________________________________________
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Post by: Mike L on April 23, 2009, 02:46:00 PM
We use a Haus resurfacing machine on balls instead of by hand, im telling you now I don't care if you go from 360 to 500 to 4000, when you do it in the machine it puts a polish on it even if for just a few minutes at 4000. I have noticed I can take a Virtual Gravity from 360, 500, 4000, then back to 500 and its pretty close to the OOB look and reaction. Is there a system that should be used when using the Haus machine, because it doesn't work the same as the info provided? It does however seem to work when doing it by hand, just like they say to do. Just curious if anyone else uses this machine for resurfacing.
Thanks,
Mike
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"Typical House Bowler"
Post by: n00dlejester on June 01, 2009, 05:43:22 PM
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Proud Supporter of Rob Stone
Obviously, you aren't a golfer.
Some stayed in the foothills, some washed logs like teeth.
Post by: MI 2 AZ on June 16, 2009, 06:43:18 PM
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
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_________________________________________
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Post by: Brickguy221 on June 16, 2009, 08:30:46 PM
quote:
In order to restore these numbers, abralon pads are recommended for virtually every ball in our current or past production line. The easiest and fastest way to refinish the ball is to use a 360 grit abralon pad on the ball. If the ball is being finished by machine, 60 seconds is usually sufficient whereas other methods may take longer. The whole idea is to thoroughly, cut, scar and groove the surface of the ball with the 360 grit pad. Before finishing the 360 grit, make sure the entire surface of the ball has been evenly cut. If it is done by hand or by a ball spinner, a cross-hatch finish is recommended. For the next stage, very lightly sand the surface with a 500 grit abralon pad. This will lower the Ra and Rs values slightly, but it isn’t going to completely destroy the surface deviations created from the previous stage.
After the ball has been lightly sanded with 500 grit abralon, please skip directly to the original out of box finish. For example a 4000 grit finish, no polish would require using a 360 grit abralon pad, then light application of a 500 abralon pad finally, skip the 1000 and 2000 stages and go directly to the 4000 finish. The 360 and 500 grit abralon pads will reproduce the original deep grooves and cuts from the factory rounding and finishing process setting the foundation for the final finish. Then, by skipping directly to the 4000 grit abralon stage, the surface will be smoothed and ‘polished’ without destroying the surface deviations. This effectively leaves the surface with the high peaks and deep valleys, but they aren’t as sharp or jagged. This should restore the original ball reaction allowing the ball to skid on oil, read the lighter buff areas of the pattern and still have amazing recovery potential on the backend.
For polished balls, reproduce the 360 and 500 grit finish and then apply Storm Step 2 Finishing Compound. This is the exact same finishing compound we use on all of our 1500 grit polished balls. The trick to the polish application is to use less polish and very light pressure. Step 2 Finishing Compound has a resurfacing medium in it that sands the ball while it is being polished over-application of the compound will effectively destroy the same surface deviations that originally gave the ball it’s strong out of box finish.
The key to restoring any finish is deeply cutting the ball with the fresh 360 grit abralon pad and then very lightly applying a 500 grit pad. The same is true of the final step as well. Over-application of the 1000, 2000, or 4000 grit pads can destroy the surface deviations created by the 360 and 500 steps weakening the over-all ball reaction.
My Playmaker became weak with no back-end pop after 100 games. I used the above method but didn't have any Storm Step 2 Polish so I used some Ebonite Factory Polish that I had. This didn't help the ball much if any at all, so I re-sanded the ball following the above steps again and polished with 3M Finesse-It II and voila, the ball came back to life and performed like it did when NIB.
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"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: tburky on June 16, 2009, 08:41:11 PM
quote:
I have not read every post because it seemed people wanted to argue more but I do have a question about it.
We use a Haus resurfacing machine on balls instead of by hand, im telling you now I don't care if you go from 360 to 500 to 4000, when you do it in the machine it puts a polish on it even if for just a few minutes at 4000. I have noticed I can take a Virtual Gravity from 360, 500, 4000, then back to 500 and its pretty close to the OOB look and reaction. Is there a system that should be used when using the Haus machine, because it doesn't work the same as the info provided? It does however seem to work when doing it by hand, just like they say to do. Just curious if anyone else uses this machine for resurfacing.
Thanks,
Mike
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"Typical House Bowler"
I use a storm factory finish machine and i guarantee you it gets very close to box and does not have a polished look to it.
Post by: MI 2 AZ on August 18, 2009, 01:32:17 PM
--------------------
I am the Sgt Schultz of bowling.
"I know nothing! I see nothing! NOTHING!"
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Post by: MI 2 AZ on July 10, 2010, 02:07:10 PM
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