Let's talk about urethane coverstocks and carrydown. Being on the younger side of this sight, I didn't grow up knowing what true carrydown was in terms of ball motion. I heard about it, but it was never something I had to consider. The last 5 years, I've become more competitive seeing all kinds of lane conditions. Something that has resurge for certain is urethane. The way some patterns shape, develop, etc have made it a viable option to many higher rev rate players (or in many cases a mirage that "ruins" the shot for themselves and/or others). In my earlier years of this kind of bowling environment, I thought urethane and plastic coverstocks created carrydown itself. From my understanding as of late, carrydown is created by balls that don't really flare. This can cover coverstocks of all sorts (including reactive). In opposite terms, this means urethane balls that do flare will NOT create carrydown. In a recent discussion with some PBA bowlers, there were some complaining about urethane destroying patterns and what not, one of them began to complain that a bowler did the same with a Black Widow Urethane. I haven't done any testing with the higher flaring urethanes, but this doesn't hold true with my philosophy. Personally, I think there's a chance that many of the newer oil patterns tighten up later in blocks regardless of lower flaring equipment. But I am not disregarding what happens when people do throws such equipment especially with a higher rev rate. Curious on what everyone will input here. This conversation was inspired by the Epoxy question since I'm sure many competitive two handers would love to have a ball with that coverstock.

Flaring urethanes might not create the type of carrydown that used to be a problem, but since they still don't really absorb oil, if you don't wipe the ball off between shots, you'll still redistribute oil down lane - at or after the break point.

Bingo!
I believe this is a mostly correct concept. Plastic and urethane absorb oil much more slowly that resin/reactive. As they are continually thrown down the lane, they will deposit the oil on their surface onto the lane surface where they make contact. Urethanes that flare a lot have the oil spread over a wider surface (flare rings) than those that flare less, but unless the bowler actively wipes the oil off on EVERY shot, the oil on the ball will tend to put some of the oil on ts surface onto the lane surface at the point of contact.

I am still of the opinion of BTM articles that in the vast majority of cases what people think is carry down affecting their reactives is actually early friction caused by the reactives depleting the front and end of the pattern.  Juggs said it best on here that the actual carry down his urethanes cause tend to help others on his pair throwing reactives and the carry down is more a problem for those using urethane and plastic.  This because reactives do better with the little bit of oil urethane carries down at the end (reactives made to hook on light amount of oil) instead of early friction.  Urethane and plastic do cause carry down but I still think its garbage that they get blamed for destroying the pattern instead of the fool with 600 revs spraying his 500 grit Sure Lock all over the place.

Most of these questions can be answered by walking down the lane and looking at the last 20 foot of the lanes after competition.   Anybody that thinks resin soaks up all the oil and doesn't carry it down the lane are fooling themselves.  Also that oil is coming from an area 24-30 foot down the lane.  More midlane than heads.  Those that move left and throw right back into that same area, going to get same results, ball flips and rolls out.  (sometimes taken for carrydown)   Sometime watch Belmonte or Mallot go inside the dry spot and outside of the carrydown.   It's either that or take out the sideturn on the ball and roll through it.  A la Duke or Walter Ray.

Quote from: bullred on July 23, 2018, 03:30:12 PM

Most of these questions can be answered by walking down the lane and looking at the last 20 foot of the lanes after competition.   Anybody that thinks resin soaks up all the oil and doesn't carry it down the lane are fooling themselves.  Also that oil is coming from an area 24-30 foot down the lane.  More midlane than heads.  Those that move left and throw right back into that same area, going to get same results, ball flips and rolls out.  (sometimes taken for carrydown)   Sometime watch Belmonte or Mallot go inside the dry spot and outside of the carrydown.   It's either that or take out the sideturn on the ball and roll through it.  A la Duke or Walter Ray.

Took me reading your post 2 or 3 times and I think I get it.  I move feet left and hit the same mid lane spot me and everybody else have been hitting all night and it reads early and goes high.  I move my target right a couple boards to avoid that part of the mid lane and I don't get back to the pocket leaving the 2 pin and anything else left standing because now I'm in the carry down.  And I don't have the revs like Belmo or Mallot to target even farther right of the carry down and make it back to the pocket, lol.  Thanks for the tip.         

Don't necessarily need carry down to explain the over/under at all.

"As bowlers continue to play in the same general zone, oil is depleted and friction creeps closer toward the foul line and into the midlane zone. This midlane friction evolves into bad friction or what I refer to as El Diablo. El Diablo is an unfriendly zone because it causes a bowler to lose carry due to reduced ball motion and the loss of hold. The ball motion in El Diablo territory is what I call the “Y”.

The Y represents an over/under situation brought about by the bad friction of El Diablo. If a bowler misses to the outside, the ball loses too much energy and has too little response to get back to the pocket with good carry.

Conversely, a miss to the inside causes the ball to hook early and not hold pocket. These misses lead to a ball motion that looks like the “Y” shape you see in the image above. The white areas in the photo indicate increasing amounts of friction."

https://www.bowlingthismonth.com/bowling-tips/el-dorado-and-el-diablo/

I don't habla but I get it.  I'm also pretty sure the el diablo I see most nights is a lot wider than the 5-8 boards in that picture.  Thanks for the link.  I remember reading that article before.  I probably didn't understand it as well as I do now.

Well wouldn't you know.... it's that zone of the lane that everyone who complains all the time plays, but refuses to move from.

Quote from: DP3 on July 24, 2018, 08:42:23 AM

Well wouldn't you know.... it's that zone of the lane that everyone who complains all the time plays, but refuses to move from.

Who has time for a nose bleed?

OH MY GOD MY FEET ARE LEFT OF THE BIG DOT AND I'M DEEPER THAN 15 AT THE ARROWS!!!!!!