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Author Topic: Urethane/Carrydown  (Read 20120 times)

2handedrook12

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Urethane/Carrydown
« on: July 23, 2018, 04:04:00 AM »
Let's talk about urethane coverstocks and carrydown. Being on the younger side of this sight, I didn't grow up knowing what true carrydown was in terms of ball motion. I heard about it, but it was never something I had to consider. The last 5 years, I've become more competitive seeing all kinds of lane conditions. Something that has resurge for certain is urethane. The way some patterns shape, develop, etc have made it a viable option to many higher rev rate players (or in many cases a mirage that "ruins" the shot for themselves and/or others). In my earlier years of this kind of bowling environment, I thought urethane and plastic coverstocks created carrydown itself. From my understanding as of late, carrydown is created by balls that don't really flare. This can cover coverstocks of all sorts (including reactive). In opposite terms, this means urethane balls that do flare will NOT create carrydown. In a recent discussion with some PBA bowlers, there were some complaining about urethane destroying patterns and what not, one of them began to complain that a bowler did the same with a Black Widow Urethane. I haven't done any testing with the higher flaring urethanes, but this doesn't hold true with my philosophy. Personally, I think there's a chance that many of the newer oil patterns tighten up later in blocks regardless of lower flaring equipment. But I am not disregarding what happens when people do throws such equipment especially with a higher rev rate. Curious on what everyone will input here. This conversation was inspired by the Epoxy question since I'm sure many competitive two handers would love to have a ball with that coverstock.
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Impending Doom

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2018, 10:56:28 AM »

Well wouldn't you know.... it's that zone of the lane that everyone who complains all the time plays, but refuses to move from.

Who has time for a nose bleed?

OH MY GOD MY FEET ARE LEFT OF THE BIG DOT AND I'M DEEPER THAN 15 AT THE ARROWS!!!!!!



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milorafferty

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2018, 12:31:26 PM »
This entire Urethane v Resin carry down concept baffles me.

I throw mostly resin and use a Genesis pad to wipe my ball down before each shot(honestly, more out of habit/routine than for effectiveness). I throw my ball and return to my seat and wait for my next turn. With either 3 person or 5 person teams, my ball still has oil rings on it when I pick it up to throw again. At least 5 minutes pass before I return to wipe off my ball for my next frame and oil rings are usually still there.

Given my observations of oil persistence on the cover of reactive resin balls and the fact of how long it actually takes for a ball to roll down the lane, how much more oil can a urethane ball truly leave verses a reactive resin ball?
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2handedrook12

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2018, 01:04:54 AM »
This entire Urethane v Resin carry down concept baffles me.

I throw mostly resin and use a Genesis pad to wipe my ball down before each shot(honestly, more out of habit/routine than for effectiveness). I throw my ball and return to my seat and wait for my next turn. With either 3 person or 5 person teams, my ball still has oil rings on it when I pick it up to throw again. At least 5 minutes pass before I return to wipe off my ball for my next frame and oil rings are usually still there.

Given my observations of oil persistence on the cover of reactive resin balls and the fact of how long it actually takes for a ball to roll down the lane, how much more oil can a urethane ball truly leave verses a reactive resin ball?
It's not that urethane pushes a ton of oil down the lane, but itpushes enough down the lane to modify ball motion. Balls aren't suppose to skid twice.
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Cornerpin

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2018, 07:23:12 AM »
This entire Urethane v Resin carry down concept baffles me.

I throw mostly resin and use a Genesis pad to wipe my ball down before each shot(honestly, more out of habit/routine than for effectiveness). I throw my ball and return to my seat and wait for my next turn. With either 3 person or 5 person teams, my ball still has oil rings on it when I pick it up to throw again. At least 5 minutes pass before I return to wipe off my ball for my next frame and oil rings are usually still there.

Given my observations of oil persistence on the cover of reactive resin balls and the fact of how long it actually takes for a ball to roll down the lane, how much more oil can a urethane ball truly leave verses a reactive resin ball?
It's not that urethane pushes a ton of oil down the lane, but itpushes enough down the lane to modify ball motion. Balls aren't suppose to skid twice.
+1000
Today's game on a house shot is all about migrating left (for a righty) as the night goes on based on the stronger resin covers burning up the oil in the common hook area.  When someone uses urethane in that area, it will cause just enough oil to carry into that area so your ball will skid just a foot or two longer, which can cause shots that miss the pocket to the right.  I bowl in many competitive leagues and average 220+ and you always have to pay attention if you are bowling with someone using urethane and adjust accordingly, by either moving back to the right or trying to avoid the area they are rolling it.

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2018, 07:44:57 AM »
Today's game on a house shot is all about migrating left (for a righty) as the night goes on based on the stronger resin covers burning up the oil in the common hook area.  When someone uses urethane in that area, it will cause just enough oil to carry into that area so your ball will skid just a foot or two longer, which can cause shots that miss the pocket to the right.  I bowl in many competitive leagues and average 220+ and you always have to pay attention if you are bowling with someone using urethane and adjust accordingly, by either moving back to the right or trying to avoid the area they are rolling it.

Which leads to, really, I think the crux of the discussion.  Sometimes you'll get that player throwing urethane and you'll get into that spot where if you move left a little you'll hit that carry down and leave 2-4-5 type leaves (for a righty) and if you move a board or two right you'll get that instant check where the ball stands up and will dive.  I think that's what can be frustrating sharing a pair with someone throwing urethane and I think this is what is meant by "destroying the pair" generally speaking.

I do feel that's on me to make the adjustment to it.  It certainly would be better if that urethane didn't exist but it is what it is.  Usually in this situation I'm thinking of a ball change as well as a zone change on the lanes.  The decision becomes moving left and balling up vs moving right and getting something cleaner and more controlled. 
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milorafferty

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2018, 09:44:26 AM »
Still not buying it. I don't notice any difference when bowling with people using urethane v resin, even if they are playing the same line.

Is it possible that this is a case of "If you believe it, you will see it"?
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JazlarVonSteich

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2018, 10:49:09 AM »
Still not buying it. I don't notice any difference when bowling with people using urethane v resin, even if they are playing the same line.

Is it possible that this is a case of "If you believe it, you will see it"?

I think you mostly notice it if you are also throwing urethane/plastic or there are enough people throwing these type of balls. I find the biggest issues during mixed league where these people are not wiping balls down. Shiny balls can be susceptible to it as well. I ran into this last night. Not a huge deal, but enough to cause carry issues. I DO think it takes a lot to cause issues with a stronger ball though. In that case, it's most likely oil depletion.

If I am not seeing my ball have issues reacting when I am throwing urethane, then you most certainly are not if you are throwing stronger resin.

BowlingForDonuts

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2018, 10:50:36 AM »
Still not buying it. I don't notice any difference when bowling with people using urethane v resin, even if they are playing the same line.

Is it possible that this is a case of "If you believe it, you will see it"?

+1.  Weird how I am defending urethane considering only throw it in practice (don't have a lot of revs) but its fun to throw for whatever reason (do like my gems) so when gets demonized unfairly I stick up for it.

(edit: as Jaz mentions above urethane and plastic affect urethane and plastic significantly more than reactives imo.)
« Last Edit: July 25, 2018, 10:54:39 AM by BowlingForDonuts »
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Bowl_Freak

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2018, 11:00:45 AM »
If people are bowling bad for any reason, they will find a reason to complain. If someone is throwing urethane, they will complain its that. If someone is throwing a 500 sanded CodeX 2handed, they will complain about that. "Well, he blew up the lane with the 500grit!" "The urethane caused all that carrydown!", blah blah blah. Its a joke these days and that is one of the reasons i don't bowl much anymore.

avabob

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #25 on: August 06, 2018, 12:36:11 PM »
Carrydown first became a noticeable phenomenon with the transition from lacquer to urethane lane finishes in the early 1970s.  Bowlers struggled with carrydown using polyester and rubber balls as the oil was pushed off the heads and down the lane without a track developing as was the case on lacquer. 

Lane men, trying to minimize the problem actually made it worse by loading up the heads and stripping the back ends.   Eventually solution was to put out short patterns of very wet dry walls .  Overall oil volumes were still very low by todays standards, but short runs of less than 28 feet with no buff out really made the carrydown noticeable.   The heavy walls however, soon produced an environment that rewarded high rev power. 

Introduction of urethane balls didnt combat carrdown, but they did reward high rev releases on on the short walls. 

Then came the resin revolution in 1992.  Resin combatted carrydown in a number of ways.  First, the shell absorbed some oil rather than pushing it down the lane.  Second the higher friction of resin caused some oil to dissipate from heat.  Most important, the resin would cut through the realtively small amount of oil that was available to be carried down in that era.   Indeed, for the next 10 to 12 years,  patterns blowing up and driving everyone to 5th arrow in any long formats was a much bigger issue. 

With todays huge increase in oil volumes compared to 30 years ago the carrydown potential had again appeared, especially with the resurgance of urethane balls

DP3

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #26 on: August 06, 2018, 03:21:30 PM »
Everyone talks about "how much oil these new balls absorb", yet never talks about the same balls "absorbing" the oil down the lane that's classified as "carrydown".

Bowlers over-complicate one of the simplest games there is and go into full "The world's against me" mode when they can't hit the same shot that everyone else has to bowl on. It's a much more enjoyable game putting the blinders on, covering your spares, and bowling for profit over reaction. There can be a dead shim on 15 that will carry 85% of the hits but as long as there's some dry to the right, bowlers would rather cover a bunch of boards and complain rather than see very little reaction, average 225 and make the finals of a tournament.

avabob

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #27 on: August 06, 2018, 03:32:25 PM »
A couple more points on carrydown.  It isnt that urethane carries down oil so much, but rather it reacts to carrydown more extremely than resin.  With the  trend to longer buffs the nasty impact of carrydown that we saw in the 80s is much less.  Also I chuckle at guys with 500 revs and dulled up balls complaining about urethane carrydown at the same time they are blowing up the pattern.

DP3

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #28 on: August 06, 2018, 05:26:02 PM »
Right, there's nothing wrong with using surface, but I would say 7/10 bowlers don't realistically have a clue of the path their ball is taking through the heads. They're looking at the pins, breakpoint, or bowling on feel and not really looking anywhere so they think their ball is going "up 10", when it's laid down on 22, crossing 16 at the arrows and out to 8 in the midlane. The issue becomes dull balls going up 7, from 30-15, 25-7, 25-12 from 4 different guys on one pair in a league night. These centers probably haven't upgraded their oils in 6-8 years so it doesn't take long before a pattern gets blown out.

You won't see "carrydown" when guys are playing the lanes on top of each other with todays equipment.

northface28

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #29 on: August 07, 2018, 08:26:56 AM »
Right, there's nothing wrong with using surface, but I would say 7/10 bowlers don't realistically have a clue of the path their ball is taking through the heads. They're looking at the pins, breakpoint, or bowling on feel and not really looking anywhere so they think their ball is going "up 10", when it's laid down on 22, crossing 16 at the arrows and out to 8 in the midlane. The issue becomes dull balls going up 7, from 30-15, 25-7, 25-12 from 4 different guys on one pair in a league night. These centers probably haven't upgraded their oils in 6-8 years so it doesn't take long before a pattern gets blown out.

You won't see "carrydown" when guys are playing the lanes on top of each other with todays equipment.


Yep. I see it all the time. Bowler says “I’m going up 5”. I go watch and know in their setup on the approach they aren’t going up 5. They’re standing on 22. Sure enough, laydown at 16, through the arrows at 12 out 5. Swinging 5 isn’t going up 5. Most bowlers have no clue how much left to right they have in their game (right handed) until they get on something tough and “someone else ruined the shot”. No one ruined the shot champ, you ability to repeat shots is poor. You see it all the time in the USBC threads.
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Impending Doom

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Re: Urethane/Carrydown
« Reply #30 on: August 07, 2018, 09:39:17 AM »
Right, there's nothing wrong with using surface, but I would say 7/10 bowlers don't realistically have a clue of the path their ball is taking through the heads. They're looking at the pins, breakpoint, or bowling on feel and not really looking anywhere so they think their ball is going "up 10", when it's laid down on 22, crossing 16 at the arrows and out to 8 in the midlane. The issue becomes dull balls going up 7, from 30-15, 25-7, 25-12 from 4 different guys on one pair in a league night. These centers probably haven't upgraded their oils in 6-8 years so it doesn't take long before a pattern gets blown out.

You won't see "carrydown" when guys are playing the lanes on top of each other with todays equipment.


Yep. I see it all the time. Bowler says “I’m going up 5”. I go watch and know in their setup on the approach they aren’t going up 5. They’re standing on 22. Sure enough, laydown at 16, through the arrows at 12 out 5. Swinging 5 isn’t going up 5. Most bowlers have no clue how much left to right they have in their game (right handed) until they get on something tough and “someone else ruined the shot”. No one ruined the shot champ, you ability to repeat shots is poor. You see it all the time in the USBC threads.

But isn't there a ball that will make their shortcomings go away? THERE MUST BE!!