Another short pin thread!

[lilpossum1]

With all of this talk of short pin layouts being “better than urethane,” it brought up a few questions in my mind. First off, would it be more advantageous in any ways to drill either symmetrical or asymmetrical over the other? Would it weaken down, say, a crux prime or gravity evolve  enough to use it on a house with wooden lanes with shoddy, but not necessarily dry, lane conditions. I’m wondering if a short pin SPEC ball would blend inconsistent back ends.

Second, Mo advises against pin down symmetrical balls on house shots. Wouldn’t a short pin keep the pin lower also unless somebody has a PAP higher on the VAL? Why not advise against short pin layouts on symmetrical balls?

[ignitebowling]

Mo hating pin down has nothing to do with reality.

On a shorter pin layout you want to keep the pin even with the ring finger or just above if drawing a line from the ring finger to your pap.

Surface is still king and if bowling on wood id imagine for most a high performance ball is going to still be too much trying to play straighter angles.

[leftybowler70]

Good info ignitebowling.

[BowlingForDonuts]

Mo hating pin down has nothing to do with reality.

On a shorter pin layout you want to keep the pin even with the ring finger or just above if drawing a line from the ring finger to your pap.

Surface is still king and if bowling on wood id imagine for most a high performance ball is going to still be too much trying to play straighter angles.

+1.  If you need a short pin you are probably not who Mo had in mind anyway considering trying to control the back end not increase it.

[bowling_rebel]

I would worry that if a short pin layout takes out too much flare, than can get carry down with reactive.

When I switched to no-thumb, I bought a Columbia Scout as weak reactive to help me learn. It didn't flair and produced tremendous carry down.

This would have never happened when using my thumb, but a ball with 400 RMPs and low tilt (as common with no-thumb bowlers) has so much surface to grab oil in the front, and it it doesn't flare can dump a lot on back end.

I practice a lot with a cyclone with has a low flare layout. If the lanes are dry, it breaks down like usual. But if I ever get change to practice with it on fresh, after a game or two I need to move right just like urethane.

Later used cherry vibe with 2 inch pin to PAP, very controllable. It's not exactly like urethane, but a stronger version of Covert Tank (which is not urethane either). But that ball still flares.

Anyway, I suspect if the goal is to avoid carrydown, it may be better to use a "urethane like" ball the flares (covert tank, badger infused) than a reactive ball with a low diff and short pin-PAP.  But I haven't drilled all these options to compare so don't know.

I do know for sure that high rev, low tilt bowlers using a low flare reactive can cause quit a lot of carry down.

Back when I used my thumb and had a 220 rev rate, I didn't even think carry down was much of a real thing. Even using urethane I never produced it.

[ignitebowling]

I would worry that if a short pin layout takes out too much flare, than can get carry down with reactive.

When I switched to no-thumb, I bought a Columbia Scout as weak reactive to help me learn. It didn't flair and produced tremendous carry down.

This would have never happened when using my thumb, but a ball with 400 RMPs and low tilt (as common with no-thumb bowlers) has so much surface to grab oil in the front, and it it doesn't flare can dump a lot on back end.

I practice a lot with a cyclone with has a low flare layout. If the lanes are dry, it breaks down like usual. But if I ever get change to practice with it on fresh, after a game or two I need to move right just like urethane.

Later used cherry vibe with 2 inch pin to PAP, very controllable. It's not exactly like urethane, but a stronger version of Covert Tank (which is not urethane either). But that ball still flares.

Anyway, I suspect if the goal is to avoid carrydown, it may be better to use a "urethane like" ball the flares (covert tank, badger infused) than a reactive ball with a low diff and short pin-PAP.  But I haven't drilled all these options to compare so don't know.

I do know for sure that high rev, low tilt bowlers using a low flare reactive can cause quit a lot of carry down.

Back when I used my thumb and had a 220 rev rate, I didn't even think carry down was much of a real thing. Even using urethane I never produced it.

Higher rev rate and burning up your lay down point also creates the illusion of carry down.  That goes away if moving a little right or left of the initial lay down point.  Or by lofting over it.


Also something over looked when reading "low flare layout" is that any deviation from 3 3/8" pin to PAP reduces flare.  So a 2" pin is 1 3/8" from max flare the same as 4 3/4" pin to PAP is 1 3/8" from max flare.  The difference is the look/shape it creates.

[Impending Doom]

Also something over looked when reading "low flare layout" is that any deviation from 3 3/8" pin to PAP reduces flare.  So a 2" pin is 1 3/8" from max flare the same as 4 3/4" pin to PAP is 1 3/8" from max flare.  The difference is the look/shape it creates.

You'd be amazed how many people don't understand this. Once I explain it with an egg analogy, it seems to clear up any confusion.

[TWOHAND834]

I have had a few balls with the short pin layout and never once had any issues with carry down.  Ebonite Black Ice, Track 300C Solid, and Arson Low Flare Solid all had 2 inch pin to PAP layouts.  In regards to putting this layout on a high end ball.  I think it is a waste of money personally.  The whole point of this layout is to make a ball roll with extreme control without going dead straight.  The layout is typically not designed for heavy oil conditions.  It is more for conditions where you need control on the back end when everything else you have is getting uncontrollable.  Short to mid length patterns that are 34-38 feet in length are suitable for that type of ball.  Also, tournaments with patterns that have flatter oil patterns can also call for short pin balls when you want to play straighter.  IMO....I am sure there may be a rebuttal on what I am going to say.  But I dont see the reason to take a $229.00 ball and make it roll like a $150.00 ball.  There are too many balls on the market that you dont need a high end ball to roll like a lower end ball.

[BallReviews-Removed0385]

I agree, TWOHAND834, I recently did a 2 1/4" pin to PAP on my Uppercut and love the control I get on the lanes. 
Did I "cripple" my ball?  Some might suggest so, but I have enough balls that go hard on the backend.  I was filling a spot rather than maximizing hook.  I have not regretted that layout for a minute.
I also agree that spending top dollar isn't necessary when there are so many great mid-price options on the market.

[Impending Doom]

Some balls I've done this on were hits (Predator, Money) some were garbage (Grip It, TNT). Surface prep is important.

[Bowl_Freak]

So exactly what would be the difference in a 2" pin-pap on a symmetric vs asym balls then. Im thinking of doing something like this.

[TWOHAND834]

Mo has a video on YT that shows how an asym with a short pin would roll.  The tester with a high rev rate was hooking the entire lane.  He had around a good 60 degrees of axis rotation and ball speed was on the slow side.  The ball used is a Conspiracy with a 1.5 inch pin to PAP. 

I would venture to say that if this was someone like myself who is more 35 degrees axis rotation and 18-19 mph at release, I would probably stare at flat 10s all day long.  I still believe this is better for playing up the track or extreme outside when the conditions call for it.

[BeerLeague]

Mo hating pin down has nothing to do with reality.

AMEN.  His throwbot tests have some merit, but I am not a throwbot.  Pin down on a symmetric ball means very little.  5 years ago, pin down was the "control layout" advocated for by Mo.  Pin down makes the ball a little smoother, but not by much.  Ball surface and YOUR RELEASE make way more difference.

I have a "short pin" Roto Grip Winner Solid.  It's good for short oil and/or hot backends.  Surface prep is everything.  For me, 4000 abralon to 1500 polish is the preferred surface.  Anything more and the ball becomes too lazy and carry starts to suffer.

[ccrider]

Mo hating pin down has nothing to do with reality.

On a shorter pin layout you want to keep the pin even with the ring finger or just above if drawing a line from the ring finger to your pap.

Surface is still king and if bowling on wood id imagine for most a high performance ball is going to still be too much trying to play straighter angles.

So when you say just above, do you mean above the line from ring finger to pap?

[Impending Doom]

Pin height is just a way to manage flare. I'd imagine that now you can't add a crater to increase flare with a pin down, saying that pin down will get you 9 all day (or whatever he said) is a good way to make sure you get your point across

That said, some of my best equipment ever had been 5*65 with varying drill angles. I love assyms because the transition is easier to read