Author Topic: Apparent contradiction in theory? (Read 3442 times)

lefty50 · « **on:** February 21, 2005, 01:32:16 AM »

Starting from the following knowledge set...

1. Shorter pin-pap distances flare earlier than late.
2. I have high (80-90) degree axis rotation, which produces more side roll, which makes the ball skid.
3. I need earlier forward roll. Yes, I know "stay behind the ball", this is a different discussion.

Now I go to Buddies, and see this....

Pin closer to 6-3/4 to improve forward roll, closer to 2-1/2 to add side roll.

WAIT, that's totally opposite of what I've been told. Long pin-pap flares later, which is not what I want to do.

See the contradiction? What's right?

lefty50 · « **Reply #1 on:** February 21, 2005, 10:56:11 AM »

Could be. The presentation slides look like they were copied from Track.

charlest · « **Reply #2 on:** February 21, 2005, 11:11:57 AM »

1. I think you're confusing pin-CG distances on the undrilled ball, off the production line, with pin-PAP location on the drilled balls.

0" pin location (pin on PAP) and 6 3/4" pins (in the track) will have minimum flare and the earliest roll.

SHorter pin-CG distances, say 1-2", stabilize the quickest, quicker (get into a roll or go through the skid/hook/roll cycle) than longer pins, say 2-5" long.

No pin position or pin-CG distance promotes side roll, that I am aware of. (Someone please educate if it is not true; Imay be laboring under a misapprehension.) Your release promotes side roll via the roation angle at the release point.

Strapper_Squared · « **Reply #3 on:** February 21, 2005, 12:50:35 PM »

Makes sense for assymetric balls, but how about the Lane#1 drill sheets (http://lane1bowling.com/tech/drilling.html) where in their little chart, they claim that a pin 6 3/4" from axis will produce the least amount of length (1/10), while placing the pin the closest to the axis will produce the most amount of length (10/10), and half way between 3 3/8" will produce moderate length (5/10).

I've asked about this before.. and even sent email to Lane#1, but never have gotten a straight answer... seems to be backwards to me...

S^2
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-Strapper Squared

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=ap-sorenstam-divorce&prov=ap&type=lgns

charlest · « **Reply #4 on:** February 21, 2005, 01:49:23 PM »

quote:
Track has suggested that pins place less than leverage from the PAP may infact help to maintain axis rotation on THEIR ASSYMETRICAL products. They feel that placements longer than this may help balls reach a more rolling nature quicker, without having much effect on flare.

I haven't seen this proven myself, but it's what they have stated.
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I'd check MoRich's drilling charts. Their control drills, although closer to the PAP than 3" are considered the best length drillings. Drilling in the 5-6" range, usually over the bridge are fo rlength plus normal flared, large hooking backends.

A lot depends on the shape of the asymmetric core when tilted and when not tilted on its side. Since Dell learned from Mo Pinel, I'd be surprised if their asymmetric core shapes did not have at least some of these drilling & pin-placement characteristics in common.

Still don't know where that "side roll" comment came from?

charlest · « **Reply #5 on:** February 21, 2005, 01:51:18 PM »

quote:
Makes sense for assymetric balls, but how about the Lane#1 drill sheets (http://lane1bowling.com/tech/drilling.html) where in their little chart, they claim that a pin 6 3/4" from axis will produce the least amount of length (1/10), while placing the pin the closest to the axis will produce the most amount of length (10/10), and half way between 3 3/8" will produce moderate length (5/10).
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-Strapper Squared

Doesn't that just sound like it's reversed to you?

??

?

?

Theoretically (I believe), 6 3/4" is the most length; 0" is the least length; both are the least flare.

some_kid · « **Reply #6 on:** February 21, 2005, 02:11:16 PM »

I think the buddies thing is true, but they are only talking about pin-pap distances between 2 1/2" and 6 3/4". I don't think they are even talking about a reaction. It's more the way the core is positioned throughout the roll. It it is at 6 3/4" it is in a high RG position with minimum flare, and the CORE will roll end over end. Not tilted. If the pin is at 2 1/2" it will be tilted and the CORE will have more side roll. You control the axis rotation of the ball. For an earlier roll you need to put the core in more of a low RG position.

lefty50 · « **Reply #7 on:** February 21, 2005, 02:56:38 PM »

Hmm. I'm still a bit confused. Let me assume first that this discussion is STRICTLY for Assym balls, and that my beliefs shouldn't change for symmetric.

If that's true, if I want an early roll and flare, but I suffer from a lot of side roll, would I go with short pin-pap or long pin-pap?

Thanks. Glad this has created some good discussion.
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Signature? I don't need no stinking signature...

Burak Natal · « **Reply #8 on:** February 21, 2005, 03:50:11 PM »

If I speak generally:

Early roll with flare:
Place the pin 3-3/8 to 4 inches from PAP, 1 to 1,5 inches above midline (pin down)
Swing the MB on to your VAL
Adjust the surface (still the biggest factor in ball reaction)

Bit more length, still rolly:
Place the pin about 4 to 4-1/2 inches, pin above fingers
Swing the MB on to your VAL
Xhole down PAP on or past VAL, make sure not to drill it in MB
Adjust the surface.

I'm sure anyone who has more experience in a specific asymmetric ball you choose to drill would suggest better solutions for that matter..

My 2 cents..
Burak

Edited on 2/21/2005 4:47 PM

Strapper_Squared · « **Reply #9 on:** February 21, 2005, 07:16:08 PM »

quote:
quote:
Makes sense for assymetric balls, but how about the Lane#1 drill sheets (http://lane1bowling.com/tech/drilling.html) where in their little chart, they claim that a pin 6 3/4" from axis will produce the least amount of length (1/10), while placing the pin the closest to the axis will produce the most amount of length (10/10), and half way between 3 3/8" will produce moderate length (5/10).
S^2
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-Strapper Squared

Doesn't that just sound like it's reversed to you??? ? ?

Theoretically (I believe), 6 3/4" is the most length; 0" is the least length; both are the least flare.

Yes, it sounds as if its exactly reversed (at least to me...) when I messaged lane#1 asking about it, they basically went around in circles and asked what type of reaction I was looking for (as if I were requesting a specific layout for a ball)... I guess I should have messaged them back and asked a little more specific... who knows. I never use the extreme layouts (0" pins and 6 3/4" pins), so its more just for understanding...

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-Strapper Squared

http://sports.yahoo.com/golf/pga/news?slug=ap-sorenstam-divorce&prov=ap&type=lgns

Author Topic: Apparent contradiction in theory? (Read 3442 times)

lefty50

Apparent contradiction in theory?

lefty50

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?

charlest

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?

Strapper_Squared

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?

charlest

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?

charlest

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?

some_kid

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?

lefty50

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?

Burak Natal

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?

Strapper_Squared

Re: Apparent contradiction in theory?