regarding your PS LL...

brunswicks CG study was a done a decade before the usbc/ibpsia/manufactures battle over potential rule changes.

-kotm

ps, when i get in that deep, it is usually a slingshot drilled 60 by 4 by 30 with a double thumb balance hole.  if i need more pop i would do the same in a trop heat hybrid....

the last long pin "barbell layout" ball i did was a tidal wave wipeout (135 by 5 1/2 by 40) with a pitched hole 1" over the fingers polished to the nines with control-it and it made countless mortgage payments for me bumping a wall so high you couldn't see over the middles with cherry picker on a old wood surface.  it was a good 10 pin ball if i went deeper than 15 with it.

Kotm,

I appreciate your comments.

Yes you are right Brunswick has been teaching these concepts as they say in the first part of this video since 1991.

However this video  appears to made in about 2005 to persuade the USBC why the cg 1 inch rule was overkill.  Part of the proposed rule was also to eliminate balance holes.

On the 135 degree ball, you are right again!  A ball like this has very little chance of carrying from a very deep angle.  Using it from inside would put a bowler at a considerable disadvantage wouldn't it?

REgards,

Luckylefty
I assume that there will be many posts like the one by my good friend Rightycomplex but alas I still don't think we will hear of many bowlers winning tournaments from inside while using balls that finish 1 to 2 inches lower in the pocket(previous links out here on this subject) or with less entry angle, unless they just love corner pin spares, but I await!

LL--You keep not thinking about x hole on the gradient line which Ron/kotm alluded to.  It's not about the CG placement it's about putting the CG in a place to allow the correct x hole on the gradient line to allow you to kick out the back row.

Let's face it ball surface and ball manipulation with hand/release with ball speed and correct layout are what is going to carry.

LL---Why keep harping on CG placement?  It's NOT CG placement it's x hole on the gradient line.  You keep missing this and blew up the other thread.  Why don't you get it?  Wondering???

BTW if you are a wrongsider and have more backend normally I get why you keep working over CG placement.  You keep talking in your threads about over reaction this I understand also as being a wrongsider.  Always looking for weak balls and they are the greatest thing...where I am a righty go the other way...amp up my ball speed as best I can cut down on axis rotation and use stronger stuff to kick out back row....possibly with weaker layouts.  We are direct opposites but I am unlike high speed no handers I am not in that realm.  Fix your axis rotation issue and this will fix a lot of issues.  Lefties with a lot of axis rotation and tilt are always looking for ways to lessen backend ball reaction hence your issue with this whole thing.  Again JMO!

I've been asked to post in another thread all my own.

Here it is.

This is simple, you are preparing to play in a big tournament, you know the shot is going to morph to inside, you are going to end up deeper than the fourth arrow and you like symmetrics.

You've picked your favorite pin position for this shot(probably over 5 inches pin to PAP).  Now tell me about the ball that you are planning to put the cg farther from your pap than your pin?  The ball you are planning to "win" with?

Or, if you have recently won a large dollar tournament lately or regional, playing deeper than the 4th arrow let's hear about the ball drilled like this with your cg negative or farther from your pap then your pin?

I look forward to the large list!

Cg No Maddeh?

Regards,

Luckylefty
PS remember Brunswick's study was intended to prove why it wouldn't matter where your CG was placed in creating ball reaction, to avoid the usbc passing a rule that cg's should not be farther from the grip center than 1 inch, and also to possibly prevent weight holes if I remember right.

Scott,

This is nothing about me, I have posts on that.  I note the last poster all with strong cg or MB positions.

If it don't matter, why not put it anywhere?  CG that is?

I also note the Weighthole position for the gentleman above KOTM was not on the gradient line.

Regards,

Luckylefty
PS Scott, I really appreciate you trying to help me with MY bowling, that is not what this post about.  I actually will discuss with you some ideas on that subject and I know you are a sincere good guy regarding that, THANKS I mean it.   PPS, I cAN bowl around the corner, no cg's ever on the negative side for that, it's EASY with my roll!

SPM,

I am much the same way in placing CG unless there are special circumstances.

More on that in another post!  But let me summarize and say if early friction is found and not much "Belly" midlane wanted.

I am a big enjoyer of midlane, if I have it I often bowl well.  The question is where does it come from, the drilling or supplied by earlier friction in the lane, then the drilling should ideally counter it!

Regarding a bowler with a strong CG out.  One of my all time favorite balls if some good oil coverage is a 3 3/8 Pin to PAP Crimson Red Sledgehammer drilled control(ie about a 40 degree angle drilling) with Mass Bias on the VAL and cg out a bit.  Thank you MO!

A moderate size but deepish weighthole on the PAP results in beautiful small belly around the 11 to 8 area on most league conditions and then a beautiful roll and slurve into the pocket that creates ton of light mixer strikes on big backends and very few splits.  Did I say Thank you MO?  Ending statics are very neutral near 0 with maybe a touch of bottom weight! 

This reaction is also nice on a bouncy World team challenge shot.
Playing inside out over 15.

I will be very surprised to see a player to use a drilling as I have just described(and as I believe you also described above) not end up with a nice rounded midlane with this drilling.  As is the usual with the cg or mass bias kicked positive.

Regards,

Luckylefty
PS still looking for our first poster with a large drilling angle and cg negative to win from around the corner deeper than the fourth arrow.   

Kidlost,

FIrst of all I get this focus on weightholes.  Regardless of whether one believes in how weightholes add flare(ie brunswick), increase differential(Mo Pinel), move the PSA(mo Pinel) or increase or decrease statics(Lane 1, and the Gravity balance system), I think all bowlers would agree that weightholes can increase, decrease, or leave similar to the ball without a weighthole.

Therefore in many cases it makes sense to set up a ball with statics close to the maximum of positive of side weight so one can Tweak reaction with weightholes after seeing the reaction. 

However, I believe there are special cases where I believe it makes sense to have core orientations what I call negative or where the cg or hypothetical projected PSA are on the negative side of the ball.  I have several of these balls and find they continually work for that special situation or should I say a couple of them.  (I will post more on that in a separate post in a couple days).

However while on this post I'd like to state there are drilling angle orientations for both symmetrics and assymetrics that I believe maximize all the midlane and backend a ball has to offer.  That range is usually somewhere in about 45 degrees to 65 degrees.  I have a difficult time seeing orientations or 0 to 30 that no matter what the weighthole orientation may NOT (correction 12/4/2012) have a difficult time generating tons of midlane(they will have that) but also backend.  On these drillings I think, why fight city hall they are designed for midlane and controlled backends.

Please update if you know of a 0 to 30 degree drilling angle ball that ended up being a high in the pocket ball greater than the 45 to 60 degree drilled versions.
(I usually find them to be the midlane ball that holds in the pocket and often lighter on the headpin)  Few splits and lots of light mixers....Fun for tournaments ....

The tighter drilling angles referenced above that  result in control on the backend can seriously win tournaments where your better opponents are all using  maximizing drilling angles that emphasize both midlanes and backends.  (thanks again MO!)

Also, there is place for drillings that minimize midlane and still provide aggressive backends.  Or those that mimimize midlane and provide controlled backends.

Kid, you know I have a lot of respect for you.  I'm curious about your Brother's pin position on his grip center CG ball.  Please update on this post with his first 4th arrow and deeper tournament victory.  If his pin is over his middle finger or bridge, I believe it is possible or if Extreme friction develops in the heads and midlane I believe it is possible also.

We are still waiting for our first post in the affirmative to this post.

REgards,

Luckylefty

"However, I believe there are special cases where I believe it makes sense to have core orientations what I call negative or where the cg or hypothetical projected PSA are on the negative side of the ball.  I have several of these balls and find they continually work for that special situation or should I say a couple of them.  (I will post more on that in a separate post in a couple days)."


How is the core negative? You can have negative side weight but what makes a pin negative or a psa negative? If you look at Micheal Fagan and how he throws the ball a 4-5" pin puts the pin well left of his middle finger, same for the psa. Is that negative even though we know it is only 4-5" (which is very standard for most) because it is left of his center grip line makes it negative? The ball doesn't know it any different when Fagan is throwing it because of his release and rotation on the ball.

" That range is usually somewhere in about 45 degrees to 65 degrees.  I have a difficult time seeing orientations or 0 to 30 that no matter what the weighthole orientation may have a difficult time generating tons of midlane(they will have that) but also backend.  On these drillings I think, why fight city hall they are designed for midlane and controlled backends."


The drilling angle places the MB somewhere between the thumb and the bowlers VAL. The larger the angle 45-65 the closer the psa and the cg should be to the bowlers center grip line. In reference to what you believe about the cg that would put it in a weak position and not allow for deep angles. A drill angle of 10-30 puts the psa and the cg way out by the bowlers VAL which will put the ball into a roll a lot sooner and generate more midlane and a sooner roll. With less backend reaction. This is what you want for heavier oil patterns where the oil is going to give the ball length to begin with. This is all been stated and shown in the information given talking about the Dual Angle layout method and desired reactions.

"Please update if you know of a 0 to 30 degree drilling angle ball that ended up being a high in the pocket ball greater than the 45 to 60 degree drilled versions."

Take any ball with a 10-30 drilling angle and the same ball with the 45-60 degree angle and bowl on a heavier oil pattern and then you can tell us.

http://wiki.bowlingchat.net/wiki/images/c/cd/DualAngle.pdf


"I'm curious about your Brother's pin position on his grip center CG ball.  Please update on this post with his first 4th arrow and deeper tournament victory.  If his pin is over his middle finger or bridge, I believe it is possible or if Extreme friction develops in the heads and midlane I believe it is possible also."


I don't think you understood what I wrote. The ball is mine, I left it for him to drill. The likely hood of me winning any tournament with any ball is slim and none. The ball is 30 x 5 x 75. That is pin above the ring and cg in the palm. The ball is ideal for clearing the heads and being angular down lane. I guess I will post a video the next time I practice to help show what I am referring to. I'm not sure why you think a pin up ball with the cg in the palm can't play deep inside angles. If you take a poll most bowlers would probably tell you that works rather well.