Author Topic: Ball Flaring Backwards???? (Read 12426 times)

Kgoff · « **on:** February 09, 2009, 04:32:37 AM »

Drilled up a Max Zone yesterday and the ball is flaring backwards. Initial track position looks like any other ball I throw. Can't figure out why.
Ball is drilled 5.5 inches pin under with a hole in the thumb quadrant center of grip through cg at 6 inches. Any help would be appreciated. Thanks

JustRico · « **Reply #16 on:** February 09, 2009, 10:13:42 PM »

Yes...
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Formerly BrunsRico

J_w73 · « **Reply #17 on:** February 10, 2009, 09:00:01 AM »

thanks.. you the man.. sorry for being stupid..

quote:
Yes...
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Formerly BrunsRico

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16-17 mph
350 rpm
PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8 up
High Game 300 x 3
High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205
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years bowling 22

jbuzz31 · « **Reply #18 on:** February 10, 2009, 09:06:55 AM »

quote:
When the pin, which dictates where the top of the core or mass is located, is placed either too close or past a positive stable point in a bowling ball, back flaring or an inverted track can occur. Stable points are the PAP and the track. If you place a pin too close to the track, it is pulled towards the track, thus inverting the flares or pulling the flares onto the grip.
If you place a pin too close to the PAP or behind it, it can accomplish a similar response.
Safe zones are within a half an inch, depending on the core differential or strength, of the track as well as the PAP. This also needs to be considered when placing a pin on the perceived VAL.

dont mean to hijack the thread, but ive been pondering a pin in track drilling on a stronger ball. so if im understanding what your saying correctly, putting the pin in/very close to the track can cause the ball to flare towards the grip rather than away from it?
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Ive Eaten From The Insane Root That Imprisons Reason

JustRico · « **Reply #19 on:** February 10, 2009, 10:44:41 AM »

Quote

thanks.. you the man.. sorry for being stupid..
Quote

Asking questions and learning is not being stupid...it's called learning.
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Formerly BrunsRico

JohnP · « **Reply #20 on:** February 10, 2009, 11:32:40 AM »

quote:
When the core is cut down on a lathe. The core is not always pinned to the pin. This happens very rarely but can happen. This will cause the ball to back flare or invert.

Thanks for the explanation, I didn't know that.
Now, regarding "reverse flare", my thought has always been that the direction the track flares is simply a function of where the bowtie is. In "normal" layouts, the bowtie is located around the finger holes, plus or minus an inch or so. So the flare is away from the thumb hole and toward the finger holes. The approximate bowtie location is determined by drawing a line from the PAP through the pin to the track. So, for example, if a ball is drilled with the pin below the grip midline the bowtie could be below the thumb hole and the flare would be toward both the thumb and finger holes, or what we call "reversed". Is this correct? -- JohnP

JustRico · « **Reply #21 on:** February 10, 2009, 11:46:56 AM »

Reverse flaring is when the flare migrates in the opposite direction. For example, when you place the pin at 7:30 for a full roller, you are placing it on the negative side of the track or closer to the NAP (negative axis point). It is placed here so that the pin migrates towards the NAP or the flare is inverting or going backwards in regards to a normal 3/4 type layout, where the pin migrates towards the PAP. On a full roller, you want the track flare to move or ligrate away from the gripping holes, as the track starts out in the center of the grip. When you use a typical 3/4 roll pin placement fro a full roller, the track migrates through the gripping holes.

Pin placement (height) is used for track manipulation, to avoid gripping holes.

On an inverted or reverse flaring track, the bow tie placement is generally irrelevant. It will usually start out in the same position as a normal or 3/4 roll track migration.

The only concern of the bow tie is too control the track migration so that it migrates around the gripping holes.
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Formerly BrunsRico

Edited on 2/10/2009 12:48 PM

johns811 · « **Reply #22 on:** February 10, 2009, 11:56:54 AM »

I thought the pin always migrates or is pulled toward the track, why would putting it close (on the pap side) cause it to flare the wrong way?

quote:
When the pin, which dictates where the top of the core or mass is located, is placed either too close or past a positive stable point in a bowling ball, back flaring or an inverted track can occur. Stable points are the PAP and the track. If you place a pin too close to the track, it is pulled towards the track, thus inverting the flares or pulling the flares onto the grip.
If you place a pin too close to the PAP or behind it, it can accomplish a similar response.
Safe zones are within a half an inch, depending on the core differential or strength, of the track as well as the PAP. This also needs to be considered when placing a pin on the perceived VAL.
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Formerly BrunsRico

JustRico · « **Reply #23 on:** February 10, 2009, 12:04:46 PM »

No the pin always tries to migrate towards the PAP or NAP. When placed too close to the track, the pin will generally be pulled onto the track, which is a stable point and then will try to migrate to the NAP.

The track follows the pin towards the PAP or NAP. This is what creates migration. The pin is flaring towards the preferred spin axis.
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Formerly BrunsRico

Edited on 2/10/2009 1:05 PM

johns811 · « **Reply #24 on:** February 10, 2009, 12:08:45 PM »

Makes sense, that is why the track migrates over the fingers, Thanks.

JustRico · « **Reply #25 on:** February 10, 2009, 12:12:12 PM »

Correct. If you do not keep the pin high enough in regards to the PAP, when the track flares and migrates, the stronger the release, the better chance of the track migrating over the gripping holes.

If the flare is catching the middle finger hole, you can drill the ring finger deeper, which can push the bow tie up and away from the MF. Might not always move it much, but it can't hurt.
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Formerly BrunsRico

JohnP · « **Reply #26 on:** February 10, 2009, 02:49:45 PM »

OK, this is interesting and is something I've been interested in for years. Let's consider a bowler with a PAP location of 5 1/2" over and 1" up, just as an example, and a layout with the pin right of and level with the ring finger (right hander). The bowtie will be about an inch above the finger holes and the track above the bowtie will be flaring toward the pin. Will the flare (at least theoretically) continue until the track is directly over the pin and then stop because the core is in a stable, upright position? -- JohnP

JustRico · « **Reply #27 on:** February 10, 2009, 08:11:33 PM »

No. If the rev rates are high enough, cores will continue to migrate if the speed is high enough, past 0. Good exapmples would be Robert Smith, Sean Rash and Jason Belmonte.

The only time you see a ball roll out or lose it's lateral rotation is do to speed. Flare out is lateral rotation and roll out is flare out plus lack of speed.
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Formerly BrunsRico

JohnP · « **Reply #28 on:** February 11, 2009, 10:06:44 AM »

So, in the same example if the physics demand that the pin migrate toward the PAP, why doesn't the flare go in the other direction? Then the pin would be moving in the shortest distance toward the PAP (or PAP toward pin, whichever is more correct), would it not? And thanks for your patience as I try to understand this. -- JohnP

Kgoff · « **Reply #29 on:** February 11, 2009, 01:56:39 PM »

I really openned a can of worms I guess. Brunswick is sending new ball. Interestingly, ball flared backwards before the x-hole was added ( flare increasing) and still after the hole but flared less. So in theory the hole did its job, just not enough. thanks

JustRico · « **Reply #30 on:** February 11, 2009, 09:46:09 PM »

The reason for flare is the core is in a state of instability or imbalance. What is happening is the pin or core is trying to stabilize itself or find its preferred spin axis, thus creating flare. The pin is chasing the PAP in a sense. The track is migrating towards the PAP, the pin is creating this. It sounds as if you are thinking if the pin is 5" from the PAP, the ball should flare 5" to find it's PSA but that's not correct.
Part of what creates the flare is dependant on the core strength or RG diff and the strength of the release.
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Formerly BrunsRico

Author Topic: Ball Flaring Backwards???? (Read 12426 times)

Kgoff

Ball Flaring Backwards????

JustRico

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J_w73

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jbuzz31

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johns811

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