Author Topic: Best drill? (Read 5051 times)

ravynfox · « **on:** September 17, 2007, 08:20:52 AM »

What would be the best drill pattern for someone with a zero pap? for A) strong arc reaction b) skid/snap reaction. what sort of ways could a person drill the ball to help them track lower i.e. changing thum pitch to get the thumb out faster? instead of going to the palm laterally could you go away laterally if the person feels it is still comfortable and can hold onto the ball?
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FearTheTurtle!!!

shelley · « **Reply #1 on:** September 17, 2007, 04:27:41 PM »

A zero PAP would put the PAP in grip center. That's a very, very strange release, you're basically twisting your arm at release. Probably the ball is spinning backwards. I can't see how that's even possible if the ball even begins to fit properly and you don't look like a complete freak when releasing the ball. Lifting with the side of the fingers instead of the pads.

Admittedly, I'm not a driller and don't really know pitches, but I don't see how a simple pitch change is going to turn a 0" PAP into a more conventional release. You'd really need a coach to fix that.

SH

Raven829 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 17, 2007, 04:50:31 PM »

There's no way anyone has a 0 PAP, except maybe some of the Asian spinners. The ball would have to spin like a top.

Don
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"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage. Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me. The problem we have to address more than anything is the home run problem."
~Dusty Baker being a total fool

shelley · « **Reply #3 on:** September 17, 2007, 04:55:13 PM »

quote:
There's no way anyone has a 0 PAP, except maybe some of the Asian spinners. The ball would have to spin like a top.

Not necessarily. That's why axis tilt is not necessarily related to PAP coordinates. 90* of tilt will give you a 0" PAP as you spin it like a top, varying amounts of axis tilt will give you larger or smaller track diameters.

It's a weird release, to be sure. I'd like to know if it's really your PAP and how you came to that conclusion.

SH

Greg T · « **Reply #5 on:** September 17, 2007, 10:15:55 PM »

quote:
All i know is what my driller said which is my pap is right on the grip line and i think its about 4" away from grip center
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FearTheTurtle!!!

So it's a 4" pap.

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If yer arm don't hurt ya ain't shiftin it right!

www.krusinklassics.net

mrbowlingnut · « **Reply #7 on:** September 18, 2007, 12:03:12 AM »

4 1/2 - 5 inch pin to pap on a flippy ball something like say a fired up or t-road pearl.

4 - 4 1/4 pin to pap on a stronger covered ball for strong arc something like a resurgence or rotogrip quest, gamebreaker in box so on.

If there is strong mass bias that can be used to fine tune ball reaction, you are 4 inches over and 0 up and down.

quote:
with no up or down just straight across. How does someone change this? or what drill patterns work best for people with that kind of pap? I want to know one for skid/snap and one for strong arc
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FearTheTurtle!!!

charlest · « **Reply #8 on:** September 18, 2007, 03:25:56 AM »

quote:
with no up or down just straight across. How does someone change this? or what drill patterns work best for people with that kind of pap? I want to know one for skid/snap and one for strong arc
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FearTheTurtle!!!

You're still not giving us enough information to work with. Lots of people have 0, up or down, but the first number, the distance is the key. It could be anything. What is the over number???

4.5" to 6" is fine; no adjustment is needed. Less than 4.5" gets into spinner territory; then learning how to change it is the key, not different drills.

Changes in thumb and finger pitch can help, but a correct release is the real answer.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."

Worrying is like rocking in a rocking chair: it gives you something to do, but doesn't get you anywhere!"

Edited on 9/18/2007 3:26 AM

JohnP · « **Reply #9 on:** September 18, 2007, 03:53:34 AM »

quote:
Less than 4.5" gets into spinner territory

charlest -- Not necessarily, you have to know axis tilt. Track diameter determines whether it's a spinner, not the PAP location. -- JohnP

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #10 on:** September 18, 2007, 07:23:54 AM »

quote:
quote:
Less than 4.5" gets into spinner territory

charlest -- Not necessarily, you have to know axis tilt. Track diameter determines whether it's a spinner, not the PAP location. -- JohnP

Absolutely. I'm at around a 4.5" PAP (maybe even a little less since it was just a quick estimation) and I'm FAR from being a spinner.

Fluff E Bunnie · « **Reply #11 on:** September 18, 2007, 08:20:15 AM »

quote:
quote:
Less than 4.5" gets into spinner territory

charlest -- Not necessarily, you have to know axis tilt. Track diameter determines whether it's a spinner, not the PAP location. -- JohnP

I am having a hard time getting my head around this one. Is there an easy way to explain it? My pap is supposed to be 4.5 and I don't throw a spinner unless I throw it really bad.

shelley · « **Reply #12 on:** September 18, 2007, 08:58:40 AM »

quote:
I am having a hard time getting my head around this one. Is there an easy way to explain it? My pap is supposed to be 4.5 and I don't throw a spinner unless I throw it really bad.

Think about spinning the ball like a top with the grip center at the north pole. That's the guy's original, confused 0" PAP. The track on the ball is basically just a dot at the bottom where the ball touches the lane.

Now think about spinning like a top but tilted 90*. Still spinning about the grip center, but the grip center is on the equator. The track is basically the full circumference of the ball.

Axis tilt can change track diameter, doesn't necessarily change the PAP.

If you want a more conventional PAP, consider a 6 3/4" PAP. With zero axis tilt, the oil would be right down the centerline, splitting the bridge and thumb. With more axis tilt, though, it would move to the side and the track diameter would shrink until you got to 90* of tilt when you had that little tiny dot for a track.

SH

Fluff E Bunnie · « **Reply #13 on:** September 18, 2007, 10:41:59 AM »

quote:
quote:
I am having a hard time getting my head around this one. Is there an easy way to explain it? My pap is supposed to be 4.5 and I don't throw a spinner unless I throw it really bad.

Think about spinning the ball like a top with the grip center at the north pole. That's the guy's original, confused 0" PAP. The track on the ball is basically just a dot at the bottom where the ball touches the lane.

Now think about spinning like a top but tilted 90*. Still spinning about the grip center, but the grip center is on the equator. The track is basically the full circumference of the ball.

Axis tilt can change track diameter, doesn't necessarily change the PAP.

If you want a more conventional PAP, consider a 6 3/4" PAP. With zero axis tilt, the oil would be right down the centerline, splitting the bridge and thumb. With more axis tilt, though, it would move to the side and the track diameter would shrink until you got to 90* of tilt when you had that little tiny dot for a track.

SH

Interesting. That makes sense. Thanks!

JohnP · « **Reply #14 on:** September 18, 2007, 10:44:04 AM »

For a true spinner, you're correct, the ball would be spinning on one quite small spot. Think of the trick shot you see the pros do where they spin the ball and start it slowly down the lane. But you can't get that effect with any kind of release. Realistically, a track diameter in the 7-8" range is considered a "spinner" (see the link below). Theoretically that track could be located anywhere on the surface of the ball, but is almost always located with the fingers and thumb hole about 3-4" from the initial track ring. That gives a PAP location of about 3 1/2 - 4 1/2" over with usually a substantial positive vertical coordinate. Now, think of the center of that first track ring, which is the negative axis point (NAP). The PAP (positive axis point) is directly on the other side of the ball, or is the other end of the "axis" (think of an axle) that the ball rolls on. Picture a series of concentric circles around the NAP. All of these circles have the same PAP, but some have very small diameters and some have the full circumference of the ball (13 1/2") as the diameter. Some of these simply don't happen when a bowler releases the ball, but some do. It is quite possible to have a track with a horizontal PAP component in that 3 1/2 - 4 1/2" range with a diameter in the 10 1/2 - 11 1/2" range. That bowler has a low track but also low tilt and is not a spinner.

To visualize axis tilt, think of that true spinner with a dot touching the lane. The PAP will be pointing straight up. That's 90 degrees of tilt. Now think of the ball rolling on the same PAP but with a larger track diameter. Can you visualize that the PAP has now shifted down toward the lane from the top of the ball? So the track has less tilt (not necessarily less axis rotation, that's a different thing). And as the track gets larger and larger in diameter the PAP moves ever closer to the equator of the ball, which would be 0 degrees of tilt.

Another way to visualize rotation and tilt -- a bicycle's front wheel. When the bike is standing still and is straight up and down, you can rotate the front wheel. That's axis rotation. But you can also lean the bicycle over as you would when taking a curve so that the front wheel is no longer vertical. That's axis tilt. Hope this clears things up instead of making them even muddier. -- JohnP

https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm

ravynfox

Re: Best drill?

ravynfox

Re: Best drill?