Author Topic: best way to layout mass bias? (Read 14229 times)

kleptic · « **on:** September 26, 2007, 07:48:57 AM »

I'm wondering what the best way to layout mass bias is, and specifically what the most important measurement for mass bias reaction is. is it distance to pap or track? the same as pin layout is?

I see a lot of people say put it on the val or near the val or between the val and track. Isn't saying put something near val kind of like saying put something near ring finger since they are both based on grip and not an actual axis the ball is rotating on?

wouldn't the only measurement really accurate on the val be a specific distance from the axis and not just any place on the val itself?

also I'm wondering about degree layouts people use to say where to put the MB, if you can draw your degree line between the MB-pin and pin-PAP, then you can rotate that to put the pin where you want and that in turn swings the mass bias around, doesnt that make a degree layout different for each person depending on that bowler and how they rotated the degree around?

or maybe neither of those ways to layout the massbias are perfect/best? are there other ways?

I've never really fully understood the effects of mass bias and how to tell what those effects are exactly so I'm hoping somebody can explain it in some detail.

thanks

shelley · « **Reply #1 on:** September 26, 2007, 04:03:09 PM »

There are a lot of systems for laying out balls and they're all pretty good and predicting the ball's reaction. You can use absolute measurements for the pin, MB (or CG) to PAP, actual pin-to-PAP with the PAP-pin-MB/CG angle, pin/MB-to-VAL,... Some may be better at predicting certain reactions in certain cases than others, but they all work pretty well.

SH

kleptic · « **Reply #2 on:** September 27, 2007, 03:28:08 AM »

I know we have some super experts on here to explain this stuff! I can't be the only one that doesn't really understand this fully.

Raven829 · « **Reply #3 on:** September 27, 2007, 04:00:50 AM »

The simple answer to your question is that a driller should use an actual distance to your PAP for both pin and MB placement. Placing the MB "on your VAL" isn't specific enough...it's like saying the MB is in the "strong" position. The multitude of different distances all have varied effects on reaction. There's more to it than that, but I'm stupid and have a hard time putting my thoughts into writing so I'll stop there.

Don
--------------------
"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage. Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me. The problem we have to address more than anything is the home run problem."
~Dusty Baker being a total fool

kleptic · « **Reply #4 on:** September 27, 2007, 04:21:23 AM »

I found this picture
http://www.currahee-usbc.org/korner/layouts/layout.png
on this website
http://www.currahee-usbc.org/korner/layouts/index.php

first off this guys method seems off considering most people use a val based on midline not axis of rotation.

on that note it seems like a good picture for visualizing the area between the track and rotational val but does that placement between track and val matter or is it distance to pap that really matters.

a little confusing

I want to get some new bowling balls, but I wan't to understand MB placement before I get anything.

Edited on 9/27/2007 4:23 AM

Raven829 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 27, 2007, 04:31:25 AM »

That picture is wrong. Your VAL is named so because it is a line that runs through your PAP perpendicular to your midline, not parallel to your track. As far as MB placement, use distance to PAP to figure out how to lay out the ball. There are others far more qualified than I to tell you specifically how the different distances translate to reaction characteristics. Generically, the closer the MB to PAP, the more forward roll; the farther the distance, the more angular.

Don
--------------------
"On-base percentage is great if you can score runs and do something with that on-base percentage. Clogging up the bases isn't that great to me. The problem we have to address more than anything is the home run problem."
~Dusty Baker being a total fool

kleptic · « **Reply #6 on:** September 27, 2007, 07:40:22 AM »

yeah in my head using distance to MB from pap seems to make the most sense, i was actually just looking at the chart at the very bottom of
https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm

the chart shows different MB to pap distances to use for various pin to pap distances and shows what effect they have.

would still like to know if thats the actual measurement that matters for MB reactions. because the various methods of layout seem to say different things some of the time.

I almost always see people saying the MB is layed out in degree's or just in a general location like so far from thumbhole. if the real measurement that matters is distance from pap why do so many people list it the other way?

hopefully somebody can post something definitive about it.

JohnP · « **Reply #7 on:** September 27, 2007, 10:41:06 AM »

quote:
I almost always see people saying the MB is layed out in degree's or just in a general location like so far from thumbhole. if the real measurement that matters is distance from pap why do so many people list it the other way?

These are two different ways of determining the MB location as related to the pin, PAP, and grip centerline. Both work, it's a matter of which your driller thinks is easier. My personal preference is two distances (ie., 5" x 4"), because I have an Armadillo that makes that system very simple. With that system, the two dimensions determine the MB to pin to PAP angle. For drillers that only have a ProSect, the MB to pin to PAP angle is easier to work with. With this system, the MB to pin to PAP angle determine the two distances. Most layouts in the sheets that come with the ball now use the angle system, so that's what I usually use now, since customers want to be able to compare what I'm doing to the sheet. Either of these systems sets the PAP location, but to complete the layout one other dimension is required. Usually this dimension is either distance from the midline to the pin or distance from the VAL to the pin. The "general location" system will not be used by a knowledgeable driller unless dealing with a new bowler where the PAP location cannot be accurately determined. -- JohnP

kleptic · « **Reply #8 on:** September 27, 2007, 08:32:14 PM »

somebody mentioned something about some new way to do layouts that morich developed, anybody know anything about it? seems nothing really definitive has been said in this thread yet.

JohnP · « **Reply #9 on:** September 28, 2007, 10:17:56 AM »

Perhaps my previous post confused you. The first step in laying a ball out is to decide the pin to PAP distance you want. Since this choice determines the percentage of the flare potential that is actually realized it is THE most important decision. The MB location slightly affects the back end reaction, and it can be located either using a distance from the PAP or a MB to pin to PAP angle. Finally, pin height is a lesser influence on back end reaction. It can be located either by distance above the midline or distance from the VAL. Then as a final tweak a balance hole can be added. There's a lot of information available on how each parameter affects reaction, I'm not going to discuss that. -- JohnP

kleptic · « **Reply #10 on:** September 28, 2007, 12:30:27 PM »

basically what a degree layout does is rotate the MB around the pap while staying the same distance away. do you think it matters if the MB is 5 inches down on the val vs 5 inches away near the thumbhole? I understand that that this changes the pin-val buffer and the pin's distance from gripline while you rotate the degree layout. I'm still wondering if seperate from the changes caused by those variables if the MB reaction changes also.

example: people say 75 degree is strong MB layout. does it matter at all what way you rotate that, or do you always get the strongest MB strength at 75 degrees regardless of if your pin height from midline or pin-val buffer puts the MB in your track or on your val or some place in between?

thanks for the responses and helping me fully understand how this works

JohnP · « **Reply #11 on:** September 28, 2007, 10:01:02 PM »

quote:
basically what a degree layout does is rotate the MB around the pap while staying the same distance away.

The pin is the vertex of the angle (MB to pin to PAP). The pin to PAP distance also sets the MB to PAP distance. If you select any one of the three to be stationary, you could consider the other two to rotate around it. Since we're setting the pin position it would be more accurate to think of the MB and PAP as rotating around the pin.

The pin to PAP and MB to PAP distances are the most important. The final parameter used to finalize the layout is much less important.

quote:
example: people say 75 degree is strong MB layout. does it matter at all what way you rotate that, or do you always get the strongest MB strength at 75 degrees regardless of if your pin height from midline or pin-val buffer puts the MB in your track or on your val or some place in between?

Remember, when you move the MB you also move the PAP, since the MB to pin to PAP angle remains constant. If the MB is, for example, 2" from the PAP it will never end up in the track. I'm afraid I'm just confusing you. I wish others would chime in. -- JohnP

Edited on 9/29/2007 11:09 AM

kleptic · « **Reply #12 on:** September 29, 2007, 01:05:39 AM »

if I put the pap 5.5 inches from the pin and lay it out with a 75 degree angle, depending on direction you now draw the val through the pap the MB could be in my track. is that MB reaction going to be the same strong MB reaction that 75 degrees is known to be if the MB is my track, I understood putting anything in your track to be a stable layout not a strong layout.

this is what makes me think that degree layouts are broken for MB positions because not everybody tracks the same. a MB position at 75 degrees for a low tracker is going to be a good distance away from their track.

the main reason I worry about this is I track very high and my track is angled closer to thumb and farther from fingers. so the MB position with degree layouts can very easily put the MB in my track.

from what you are saying John it sounds like you believe the pap to MB distance to be the main factor and that it doesnt matter if 5 inches from the pap puts the MB in your track or halfway between your track and your val. its still going to be the strongest MB position. you haven't exactly said that though so I'm still not sure

JohnP · « **Reply #13 on:** September 29, 2007, 11:27:50 AM »

quote:
Isn't Pin to MB static depending on the ball?

Yep, I meant to say MB to PAP. I've corrected the original post, hope I didn't confuse anyone too much.

quote:
from what you are saying John it sounds like you believe the pap to MB distance to be the main factor and that it doesnt matter if 5 inches from the pap puts the MB in your track or halfway between your track and your val. its still going to be the strongest MB position. you haven't exactly said that though so I'm still not sure

Somehow I'm not making this clear. If you do what you're calling moving the MB, the PAP and pin move also. The grip center (and the centerline and midline) moves with the PAP, and the track moves with the grip center. So as long as you don't change the pin and MB to PAP distances (or the MB to pin to PAP angle) the relationship between the MB and the track remains constant. The only way to get it into the track is to set the MB to PAP distance (or MB to pin to PAP angle) so that it is always in the track no matter where you set the pin in relation to the midline or VAL. This MB to PAP distance would be somewhere around 7", which is indeed weak. If you can try it on a ball, I'm sure you'll see what I'm talking about. -- JohnP

kleptic · « **Reply #14 on:** September 29, 2007, 12:59:51 PM »

what you are saying does not make sense because the angle can rotate along the val

think of the |, /, or \ being the val and the < being the angle of pin to pap and pin to MB

|< or \< or /<

your grip center is in relation to the VAL not the pap-pin-mb angle. so you can change the angle the val intersects the pap at while the pap-pin-mb angle remains constant, this moves the MB and pin in relation to your grip.

Edited on 9/29/2007 1:01 PM

Author Topic: best way to layout mass bias? (Read 14229 times)

kleptic

best way to layout mass bias?

shelley

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

kleptic

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

Raven829

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

kleptic

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

Raven829

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

kleptic

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

JohnP

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

kleptic

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

JohnP

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

kleptic

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

JohnP

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

kleptic

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

JohnP

Re: best way to layout mass bias?

kleptic

Re: best way to layout mass bias?