Author Topic: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation? (Read 17310 times)

Ric Clint · « **on:** July 25, 2009, 06:24:01 AM »

Alot of people, including myself, like to put the PIN directly above the Ring Finger to add length to the ball's reaction. I usually place my PIN's about 1/2" above the Ring Finger... but what happens if you place the PIN like 1" or 1-1/2" above the Ring Finger... can that actually make the ball kind of stand up before it hits the pins therefore LESSENING the Continuation?

If so, how is the best way to correct this and add more Continuation?

- Would it be to keep the PIN just above the Ring Finger (say like to where the PIN is just almost touching the top edge of the drilled Ring Finger hole)?

- Or would you be better off to keep the PIN above the Ring Finger AND move it more to the right of the Ring Finger (say like 1/2" above and 1/2" right of the Ringer Finger)?

Would either of the theories help?

Edited on 7/25/2009 2:31 PM

the pooh · « **Reply #1 on:** July 25, 2009, 03:15:16 PM »

To increase the continuation, you should increase the val angle. That means putting the pin under the fingers. You can still maintain the pin to pap distance you want to control the flare, but try putting the pin over under the middle finger. You will get less flare, more continuation. For earlier roll and more flare, just move it closer to your pap.You are correct, the really high pins tend to stand up very quickly.

--------------------
the pooh

Ric Clint · « **Reply #2 on:** July 27, 2009, 04:03:10 PM »

quote:
To increase the continuation, you should increase the val angle. That means putting the pin under the fingers. You can still maintain the pin to pap distance you want to control the flare, but try putting the pin over under the middle finger. You will get less flare, more continuation. For earlier roll and more flare, just move it closer to your pap.You are correct, the really high pins tend to stand up very quickly.

Where abouts would it be best to put the MASS BIAS with this layout?

J_w73 · « **Reply #3 on:** July 27, 2009, 05:07:34 PM »

yes.. putting the pin that far above the fingers puts the core in a higher rg state. This will conserve the energy and release it quicker as it hits friction..
so depending on the cover the ball could hit friction , hook , and roll out..

this could promote a hook set reaction. I did this with my immortal solid accidentally. I tried to make this early rolly ball skid flip.. didn't quite work..
The cover on the ball is super strong.. and a strong mb..
When the ball hit the dry it would hook 3-5 boards and be done. It did it very quickly though.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 7/27/2009 5:08 PM

Edited on 7/27/2009 5:08 PM

Ric Clint · « **Reply #4 on:** July 27, 2009, 07:39:22 PM »

quote:
yes.. putting the pin that far above the fingers puts the core in a higher rg state. This will conserve the energy and release it quicker as it hits friction..
so depending on the cover the ball could hit friction , hook , and roll out..

this could promote a hook set reaction. I did this with my immortal solid accidentally. I tried to make this early rolly ball skid flip.. didn't quite work..
The cover on the ball is super strong.. and a strong mb..
When the ball hit the dry it would hook 3-5 boards and be done. It did it very quickly though.
--------------------

16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Okay, so if high PIN's (meaning like 1-1.5" avove Ring Finger) may actually LESSEN the Continuation... where would be best to put the PIN for someone that doesn't really like "PIN under the fingers" layouts.

Would PIN's beside the Ring Finger promote better Continuation than PIN's 1-1.5" above the finger layouts? Or would you still keep the PIN above the Ring Finger but just not as far above it like only within 1/2" above the Ring Finger?

Or what do you recommend?

And where would you place the CG at?

And if the ball happened to be Asymetrical, where would you place the CG and MASS BIAS at?

Thanks!

Edited on 7/27/2009 7:41 PM

J_w73 · « **Reply #5 on:** July 27, 2009, 10:42:05 PM »

what ball , what reaction, and what lane condition are you looking for.
what is your speed and rev rate.

If you give me that info I can help you out.
if you just want general info ..
all of the pin up vs pin down are for a given pin to pap distance.. once you change the pin to pap distance you are changing the amount of flare and changing how/when the ball will want to hook.. or get into a roll.

check out some of the rotogrip drill sheets .. they use a pin buffer method of layout and this is basically how close the pin is to the VAL moving the pin up or down..for best continuation I have found 55-65 degree MB seems to work the best for me. greater than 65 the ball goes to long/late.. smaller than 55 the ball seems to want to hook too soon/quick/early. I really think this depends on the release and speed.. If you need help with the ball hooking than a smaller MB angle might be better.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Ric Clint · « **Reply #6 on:** July 28, 2009, 01:06:50 AM »

quote:
what ball , what reaction, and what lane condition are you looking for.
what is your speed and rev rate.

If you give me that info I can help you out.
if you just want general info ..
all of the pin up vs pin down are for a given pin to pap distance.. once you change the pin to pap distance you are changing the amount of flare and changing how/when the ball will want to hook.. or get into a roll.

check out some of the rotogrip drill sheets .. they use a pin buffer method of layout and this is basically how close the pin is to the VAL moving the pin up or down..for best continuation I have found 55-65 degree MB seems to work the best for me. greater than 65 the ball goes to long/late.. smaller than 55 the ball seems to want to hook too soon/quick/early. I really think this depends on the release and speed.. If you need help with the ball hooking than a smaller MB angle might be better.

I want to set up 2 balls to be very STRONG on the backend and Continuous at the same time... if possible.
- the Cell Pearl for the Medium to Medium/Heavy
- the Neptune for the Medium/Light to Light

Both are NIB with 3" PIN's!

275-325 RPM. Slower speed of 14 MPH or so. Usually play straighter. Not alot of Rotation.

My PAP is 5.5" over and 1" up

I generally don't like PIN's below fingers for the fear of hitting the holes. But anything else is fine!

If you need anymore info, please ask!

Edited on 7/28/2009 1:18 AM

J_w73 · « **Reply #7 on:** July 28, 2009, 03:40:33 AM »

quote:
quote:
what ball , what reaction, and what lane condition are you looking for.
what is your speed and rev rate.

If you give me that info I can help you out.
if you just want general info ..
all of the pin up vs pin down are for a given pin to pap distance.. once you change the pin to pap distance you are changing the amount of flare and changing how/when the ball will want to hook.. or get into a roll.

check out some of the rotogrip drill sheets .. they use a pin buffer method of layout and this is basically how close the pin is to the VAL moving the pin up or down..for best continuation I have found 55-65 degree MB seems to work the best for me. greater than 65 the ball goes to long/late.. smaller than 55 the ball seems to want to hook too soon/quick/early. I really think this depends on the release and speed.. If you need help with the ball hooking than a smaller MB angle might be better.

I want to set up 2 balls to be very STRONG on the backend and Continuous at the same time... if possible.
- the Cell Pearl for the Medium to Medium/Heavy
- the Neptune for the Medium/Light to Light

Both are NIB with 3" PIN's!

275-325 RPM. Slower speed of 14 MPH or so. Usually play straighter. Not alot of Rotation.

My PAP is 5.5" over and 1" up

I generally don't like PIN's below fingers for the fear of hitting the holes. But anything else is fine!

If you need anymore info, please ask!

Edited on 7/28/2009 1:18 AM

looking at how different these balls are you can probably drill them pretty similar and just let the covers and characteristics of the ball take over.

These balls are night and day.. the neptune is more for drier..not sure how it will work on medium.. it doesn't like to hook in any oil but give it some oil up front and a clean backend and it will hook alot on the backend. I had an original cell and am familiar with the difference between the balls in the cell line.

what type of hook do you want.. hockey stick snap or smooth big controlled arc..??

your PAP is similar to mine.. same over but not as much up..

anyway.. I would put the cell pearl with a 5 inch pin to pap with a 55-60 deg mb and the pin in the ring finger. This should put the mb just below and to the right of your thumb hole, about 4 1/2 inches from your PAP . That should be a big but smoother backend. If you want it more snappy then keep everything the same but move the pin up closer to the VAL.. with a 3 inch pin it may be hard to do this and keep the balls legal without a weight hole. Some drillers won't drill the pin close to the hole so you have to go up an inch over the hole and this might put the cg too high to be legal without a weight hole. Pin in the hole should be fine.
The cover of the cell pearl should provide the snap though.

On the neptune I would do the same thing or maybe go with a 4 1/2 inch pin to pap to get you a little more flare as the ball doesn't have that much differential and it isn't going to hook unless it hits dry..Just drop the cg straight down or toward the center grip enough to make it legal.. This would probably put the pin just to the right and slightly above the ring finger.
These layouts are on the really conservative side of skid flip.. I personally love skid flip and don't have a hard time controlling the snap.. some people hate it and can't get the same reaction twice.. If you are more familiar with skid flip balls then like I said.. put the pin a little closer to the VAL.

being that our paps are close.. a drilling that I used for along time was pin above the bridge with a 60 deg mb.. this put the pin at 5.5 inches to the pap. This drill is great for me but the ball does hook very late and pretty angular(of course the type of ball matters) I just recently went to 5 inch pins and it seems that I get a much better reaction , control, and carry..
that is the reason for the layouts I gave you .. should be a little smoother but big and continuous on the backend.

Check out what I said to a couple balls that you already have and see how the reactions I described compare to what you get out of them. Let me know.

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Ric Clint · « **Reply #8 on:** July 28, 2009, 02:03:43 PM »

Isn't there a Drill sheet of Diagram somewhere on the internet that shows the different DEGREE's (that shows the Degree of the MB on PAP being 0, and the Degree if the MB is in the Thumb which I think is 75 Degrees, and then the Degree for the MB in the Track which I think is 135 Degrees)?

Does anybody have that link that shows all of the Degrees?

J_w73 · « **Reply #9 on:** July 28, 2009, 02:29:53 PM »

quote:
Isn't there a Drill sheet of Diagram somewhere on the internet that shows the different DEGREE's (that shows the Degree of the MB on PAP being 0, and the Degree if the MB is in the Thumb which I think is 75 Degrees, and then the Degree for the MB in the Track which I think is 135 Degrees)?

Does anybody have that link that shows all of the Degrees?

That depends on your PAP distance from your grip.. there will not be a universal degree to location coorelation. What you say is pretty close to what mine would be but they won't be exact for everyone..
by the way a mb on the PAP would put the pin 6 3/4 from the PAP.. but yes the line from the pin through the MB on the pap would be 0 degrees..

The jury is still out with me on whether or not it is the degree or the distance from the PAP that controls what the MB does. I have it pretty much figured out for what works for me.

What are you trying to figure out

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #10 on:** July 28, 2009, 04:34:35 PM »

5 1/16 pin to pap is a half leverage position and is very good for length and backend. I would start with this pin to pap. Then the closer you get to the VAL , smaller val angle ,(or the more the finger holes are in the side of the core) the more angular and snappier it will be.. will transition from hook to roll faster and over a shorter distance
the farther from the VAL, greater Val angle will smooth out the backend and the ball will transition from hook to roll slower and over a longer distance.

Going too low , like below the fingers or closer to center grip, could lower the RG too much and actually make the ball want rev up more off your hand and to hook a little earlier.

check out the morich double thumb layout.. use this layout and the mb angle you derive with a 5 1/16 pin to pap and you should have what you want.. maybe go with a 35deg VAL because the longer pin will put the pin closer to the VAL.
Try to find a pin length that would leave the ball legal without a weight hole.. that way you can always put the weighthole in if you wanted to modify the reaction a certain way.

You put this on your cell pearl and I'm pretty sure it will be exactly what you are looking for. The neptune is a little different.. even the ball is for dry it is condition specific and hand specific.. There isn't much of a core or mb to help the ball move or hook. So the more hand the more hook.. If you are on dry dry .. the ball won't overhook but it will kind of burn up hold its line but not hook on the backend... if you have oil up front and clean backends the ball with make a move on the back larger than alot of balls..
Again, this all depends on cover, core, release, speed, and lane condition.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 7/28/2009 4:39 PM

Edited on 7/28/2009 4:45 PM

Ric Clint · « **Reply #11 on:** August 04, 2009, 09:37:16 AM »

quote:
Isn't there a Drill sheet of Diagram somewhere on the internet that shows the different DEGREE's (that shows the Degree of the MB on PAP being 0, and the Degree if the MB is in the Thumb which I think is 75 Degrees, and then the Degree for the MB in the Track which I think is 135 Degrees)?

Does anybody have that link that shows all of the Degrees?

For anybody that is interested... I found that link to the Diagram (it's towards the bottom of the page):

http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/mario/mario_315degreelayout.htm

J_w73 · « **Reply #12 on:** August 04, 2009, 10:22:16 AM »

quote:
quote:
Isn't there a Drill sheet of Diagram somewhere on the internet that shows the different DEGREE's (that shows the Degree of the MB on PAP being 0, and the Degree if the MB is in the Thumb which I think is 75 Degrees, and then the Degree for the MB in the Track which I think is 135 Degrees)?

Does anybody have that link that shows all of the Degrees?

For anybody that is interested... I found that link to the Diagram (it's towards the bottom of the page):

http://www.bowlingknowledge.com/tips/mario/mario_315degreelayout.htm

interesting article.. how it would work in the real world I don't know. I used the 75 deg as the strongest reaction with flip on two balls.. they both went way too long on me and didn't have any continuation on the back end..
That is why I have found that around 60 works for me and stuck to it. If I want to adjust the reaction I tweak from there.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Slick300 · « **Reply #13 on:** August 04, 2009, 07:59:01 PM »

Hello Ric, what are you looking for in your reaction. You mentioned continuation did you want that to rev in the midlane and continue or do you want skid flip. You have very low ball speed with not alot of revs is your biggest problem getting the ball through the front and having enough energy for it to hit if this is the case let me know I have a layout that will work for you. It sounds by your specs and ball speed that getting the ball to store its energy is the problem. Also what are you bowling on is it amf or bruswick synthetics and is there alot of oil, what is the length of the pattern that you usually bowl on.
--------------------
Ray Lathrop
Better Bowling Concepts

Author Topic: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation? (Read 17310 times)

Ric Clint

Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

the pooh

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

Ric Clint

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

J_w73

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

Ric Clint

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

J_w73

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

Ric Clint

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

J_w73

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

Ric Clint

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

J_w73

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

J_w73

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

Ric Clint

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

J_w73

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?

Slick300

Re: Can a PIN way above Ring Finger HURT the Continuation?