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General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: Jay on November 07, 2009, 08:35:13 AM

Title: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 07, 2009, 08:35:13 AM
I was wondering how normal it is for the thumb to slip when I hang the ball down at my side(still stays on).  It pretty much still happens even if I put as much tape as possible in and can still get my thumb in.  The slipping I'm talking about is also sort of a lean of the thumb towards the upper part of the thumb hole. Hopefully you can picture that.  If not I can try to take pics of what it's doing.

Any ideas what might be causing this?  Span is 4 1/4 and 4 1/8 with 1/8 forward and 1/4 left in the thumb, I'm right handed.  Not very flexible in the thumb joint, so I'm told.  Could a short span be the cause(if it's short, I have to believe it's only the ring finger and only by 1/8")?  Might I need more forward pitch?  

This isn't a huge problem if I'm going to grip the ball and I can just set my thumb in the slipped position before I start my approach.  But if I want to start relaxing more I probably need my whole thumb to stay put in the hole during my swing with little to no slipping.
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 07, 2009, 05:47:16 PM
Just to be sure, minimal bevel = sharper?
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: T-GOD on November 07, 2009, 09:17:32 PM
A less flexible thumb needs more bevel and/or more reverse if you want to get the hand/palm on the ball, creating more/better roll.

Your ball should not hang on your thumb when left at your side. It should fall off. If it doesn't, you will hang in the ball on most shots. You want to be able to release the ball when you want to.

You should need a slight(and I'm mean slight) grip with the thumb to hang on the ball. When you relax the thumb, the ball should fall/come off, when you want it to.

This way, you control the ball and not the ball controlling you. Also, it allows you to get out of the ball cleanly with not so perfect timing. Remember, nobody has perfect timing every shot. =:^D
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: agroves on November 07, 2009, 09:49:13 PM
Have you considered trying some additional forward pitch?  My span is longer than yours and I use 1/4 fwd, 1/8th palm.  What works for me may not work for you, but I'm just curious if you've tried it.

Just a thought.
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RIP Sawbones
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 07, 2009, 11:07:37 PM
agroves, yes I've been thinking about that.  I've tried 1/4 forward with this span, that's the most I've tried but I honestly can't say whether it was good or bad because the thumb drilling itself wasn't ideal at all.  I feel as if I could go 1/2" forward or more if I wasn't going to grip at all, especially if I'm not going to be making the thumb hole tight.

The way that my thumb looks when it "leans" seems to suggest under and reverse pitch but I could be way off on that.

quote:
Your ball should not hang on your thumb when left at your side. It should fall off. If it doesn't, you will hang in the ball on most shots. You want to be able to release the ball when you want to.

You should need a slight(and I'm mean slight) grip with the thumb to hang on the ball. When you relax the thumb, the ball should fall/come off, when you want it to.

To me this just doesn't seem to make much sense.  If the ball can fall off my hand when I put it at my side there's no way I'll be putting just a slight grip on the ball, I'm squeezing it.  At the same time, I do agree that you'll hang in the ball if it doesn't fall off holding it at your side, if you squeeze aka bend the thumb.

Being a squeezer by force, the problem that I have is I don't seem to know how to release at the right time.  I believe I release late, which slows my speed down and gets me more side rotation that I'm probably around 10 boards left(I'm right handed) of where I should be.  When I release at what might be the right time it feels like I'm getting nothing on the ball but that may just be something I have to deal with because realistically it seems like I'm still getting some revs.
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: agroves on November 07, 2009, 11:44:42 PM
I'd say you should at least try 1/4 to 3/8 forward.  

Pitches are too difficult to diagnose over the internet.......
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RIP Sawbones
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 08, 2009, 03:38:17 PM
I like to think I don't have a lot of bevel but it's probably a bit much still and too much below the top perhaps.  Maybe on my next drill I will try to do my own bevel.  Another factor is my span is probably too short, too much slack in my fingers.  I could probably go to right about 4 3/8" and 4 5/16".  As for the amount of away pitch I have, I don't even know if it's necessary myself, that was part of an experiment.  

A driller I went to wanted to try a bunch of reverse and left pitch because of the lack of flexibility in my thumb and he was intent on left pitch so on my ball I agreed to at least use 1/4".  The way my thumb leans towards with fingers when it slips(not sure if it's normal or not) I almost think I could clear the ball better with more right pitch than left, but I could be way off base there.  And even with that much away I still get rubbing/irritation on the right side of my thumb.
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 08, 2009, 07:23:00 PM
When I said right side of my thumb I meant the side closer to my fingers.  When doing the wrist test, my thumb points to the middle finger, so I should be closer to 0 lateral.

I don't have any particular pain in my hand but I can put my fingers in deeper than the joint and still get my thumb in all the way.  When I grab one of my older balls which had a longer span at least in the ring finger, the webbing between thumb and index finger doesn't seem overly taught to me still.
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: agroves on November 09, 2009, 01:42:04 AM
Alittle tip for using a bevel sander to adjust bevel.  DON'T USE THE sanding discs, instead use a maroon piece of scotchbrite.  This takes out much less material and allows you to adjust the bevel slowly.
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RIP Sawbones
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: bestbudzs24 on November 12, 2009, 04:47:00 AM
strike, i had a similiar problem awhile back. yes your span is probably too short. i always had problems grabbing or "fishhooking" the thumb inside the hole. i messed around with pitches for years and nothing seemed to work. so my driller came up with an idea to overstrech the grip. this has worked wonders for me since i have always been a grabber. with the grip overstreched it forces me to grab it but my thumb is only 3/4 of the way in the hole just past the joint. this allows me to clear the thumb with ease. i know it sounds strange but it worked for me. i would say if everything else you try doesnt work give this a try on a old ball you have laying around. you may be pleasanly surprised. any other questions please dont hesitate to ask. good luck

Randy
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" bowling is for one thing and one thing only to make money"
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: abrown on November 12, 2009, 06:00:21 AM
try bevelling the thumb and well a smaller whole go with a urethane slug that should help
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: JohnP on November 12, 2009, 08:15:13 AM
Also, try a piece of white tape in the front of the thumb hole.  The white tape has enough texture that it gives a more secure grip.  --  JohnP
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 12, 2009, 05:53:32 PM
I use white tape regularly.  I don't know what I'd do without it.  That said, me and my driller have determined my span is short.  I don't plan on overstretching my span but I'm going to at least try to get enough tension in my hand so I'm not pinching so much.  I really hate when my finger does not  stay in the hole as much as I think it should so I will have to be careful and not overdo it.  I'm confident that my span is 3/16" short, what's the most a span should be off?
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: T-GOD on November 12, 2009, 08:53:50 PM
quote:
When I release at what might be the right time it feels like I'm getting nothing on the ball but that may just be something I have to deal with because realistically it seems like I'm still getting some revs.
This is the thing. When you're timing is late, you're hitting the ball on the upswing and muscling the ball. Yes, it also feels like you're hitting the ball more, but that's because you're out of time and muscling it.

When the ball comes off at the right time, you feel like you're doing nothing to the ball. That's how it's supposed to feel. LESS IS MORE..!! This is a hard concept for people to understand. The less you feel like you're doing to the ball the more you're actually doing to it.

Like you're stated, you still feel like you're getting some revs on the ball when you release it earlier. You probably see that the ball hits harder also and carries the off hits better. Stay with that untill it starts to feel normal. Your scores will go way up..!! Good luck and keep us posted. PM me(it) if you'd like. =:^D
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Bowlin for Beer on November 18, 2009, 01:49:29 PM
Um, could be gravity ?!?  Sorry, couldn't resist.

It should fall off your hand when just hanging there, otherwise you'd never be able to pry the ball off your hand at release.  But, it may be that you have too much bevel, or if you've reworked your thumbhole after drilling you may have removed too much from near the opening and not enough from deeper in the thumbhole causing it to be tight near the bottom but loose near the opening.  I did this exact thing and just had to keep working out deeper in the thumbhole until it felt uniform in diamater all the way down.  Then I just had to add some more tape.

Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: AngloBowler on November 19, 2009, 03:34:01 AM
quote:
especially if I'm not going to be making the thumb hole tight


If you're not going to have a tight thumbhole, there is a high probability that you will grip the ball, whatever your pitches. When I hang the ball by my side, the ball does shift slightly, however, this doesn't happen when I'm bowling normally, because the ball is in motion, and that motion maintains the ball's position on the thumb, until the bottom of the swing where it wants to come off. I suppose the question is, does your ball slip like that when you actually swing your arm, or is it just when you hang it by your side? If it's when you hang it by your side, it's not a very "normal" event in bowling terms.

That said, if you can put your fingers further into the ball than the first joint, and still get your thumb in (comfortably) then your span is likely too short. Have you tried white tape on the front and back of the hole? I find that this gives me plenty of grip on the ball, meaning I don't need to hold onto it. I would also mention that it's worth changing the tape frequently (I change mine every 12-15 games or so) as the tape gradually absorbs skin oils and loses friction, without me noticing, until suddenly, the ball flies off my hand too early.
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Reporting from England
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 19, 2009, 08:50:45 PM
I had my span lengthened and use less bevel now, and I think I can still get the joint of my ring finger in further than I should be able to.  Anyways, the thumb still shifts a little, even during the swing and with a snug thumb hole with white tape in the back.  I really don't know if there's a way to get it it to go away completely, but what I like to do is shift my thumb the way it will during the swing before I go.  That way I don't have to deal with extra thumb rubbing or feeling the thumb slip.
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 20, 2009, 01:57:34 AM
I put tape about 1/4" below the top of the hole.  I know what you mean about the taper as that can happen after enough pieces, but I don't feel it for now.

quote:
Quick thought here.

I try to press my thumbnail against the back of the thumb hole during the whole swing.  This prevents me from clenching my hand in an effort to hang onto the ball.  When the ball is ready to leave my hand, it does so with out any thought.


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________________________________________________
There is more to bowling than just knocking down pins.


Can't do it.  Been there done that, it just doesn't work for me, for whatever reason.  Ball went straight, more or less.
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: MaidenheadBandit on November 20, 2009, 02:05:12 AM
Strike Dom,

Have you tried something like Magic Carpet.. It works if done correctly.

Cheers
MB
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Have no fear of perfection - you'll never reach it.....
Beer for the man, white wine fruit based drink for the lady.
Lane 1 for the man, storm fruit smelling ball for the lady.....
(\ /)
( . .)
c(')(')
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: JohnP on November 20, 2009, 10:06:20 AM
Strike Domination -- Two ways to check your fit -- the one everyone uses is to put your thumb in, lay the fingers over their holes and see if the leading edge of the hole is roughly half way between the first and second joint.  The other way is to grip the ball and let it hang by your side.  A standard pencil should fit snugly between your palm and the ball.  It should take just a small amount of force to insert the pencil.  --  JohnP
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 21, 2009, 01:43:52 AM
Bandit, I sampled it over a year ago.  I think it's a cool product, combining proper air flow and snugness in the thumb hole.  Some how you can still get out of the ball nicely.  I just wouldn't want to need a product like that to do well.  A product like gator tape has also been suggested to me, I think the Vise TA series tapes are similar.

Is it not normal for the thumb to shift somewhat when you swing the ball or hold it at your side, due to gravity?
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: the pooh on November 21, 2009, 08:42:52 AM
IMHO it is not normal for the ball to shift at all while hanging at your side OR during delivery. This sends a signal to me that either the span,pitches,or size of holes(or all 3) are WRONG! When I hang the ball by my side, it is very secure with almost no grip pressure.
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the pooh
Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: J_w73 on November 21, 2009, 12:47:27 PM
I went through the same thing.. tried different spans and different pitches and bevel.. less bevel or a more snug thumb(front to back) will probably help the issue as it did me but then my thumb wanted to hang up every now and then.  I finally just said enough and went with it.. if my wrist is cupped and firm the ball will not slip and there is no fear of the ball ever falling off during my swing so i just go with it.. I change my release and how I get out of the ball all the time so I would rather be able to get out of the ball all the time than hang up and toss myself onto the lane.


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16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Title: Re: Can anyone figure this out?
Post by: Jay on November 22, 2009, 05:54:02 PM
pooh, so you don't feel your thumb move or anything?

Here's some pics to hopefully help people understand what it's doing.

http://img21.imageshack.us/i/dsc00009hp.jpg/
http://img204.imageshack.us/i/dsc00008nr.jpg/
http://img109.imageshack.us/i/dsc00007iq.jpg/

First I put my hand in the ball, then swung it and placed it back on the ground.  The amount it shifts is probably cut in half if I put the death grip on the ball, this is with normal grip pressure and the hole is as snug as I'd ever want it to be and I'd probably hang.
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Justin
Bowling Boards (http://"www.bowlingboards.com")