Author Topic: CG in for low diff balls? (Read 3817 times)

Ragnar · « **on:** November 17, 2004, 02:49:31 AM »

I've never had much luck with CG in palm layouts. However, on the advice of Richie Sposato of Lane #1, I drilled up a Buzzsaw Bullet with the CG shifted 1/2" toward PAP from grip center, pin beside ring finger, and it seems to work very well for me. I'm wondering if this sort of thing (CG in) might be more useful on these low diff, low flaring balls than on balls with higher diffs? Or is it just that I got "lucky" with the drill on this particular ball?
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"A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal." Oscar Wilde
Ragnar sure likes to throw his purdy Uranium Buzzsaw.

jimensminger · « **Reply #1 on:** November 17, 2004, 11:23:37 AM »

I love that drill,...even with the cg in the neg side of the grip,..
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www.dynothane.com

Leftyhi-trak · « **Reply #2 on:** November 18, 2004, 02:46:46 PM »

I believe you get less over/under wit the low diff balls by nature and for patterns like you have stated it makes sense. My low flare particle has been wonderful all year with a standard label drill. My only negative is playing away from the pocket with these balls can be spotty on carry unless you totally match the pattern. I do find i can carry much better on high hits though as I do not over deflect.

BigHorhn · « **Reply #3 on:** November 19, 2004, 10:43:17 AM »

How does that drill carry on dry/flying backends? By the way I'm a lefty also.

Ragnar · « **Reply #4 on:** November 19, 2004, 11:46:21 AM »

BigHorhn, the shot I'm using it on has double stripped backends. Works well for me on that.
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"A little sincerity is a dangerous thing, and a great deal of it is absolutely fatal." Oscar Wilde
Ragnar sure likes to throw his purdy Uranium Buzzsaw.

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #5 on:** November 19, 2004, 12:16:34 PM »

cg out drillings give a lot of midlane and hook set!

cg towards track seem to give a lot of length, little midlane and quite a nice little flip from the outside that can carry! The same pin position, ball and stacked if played on the same outside line will often leave 9s for the righty and 8s for the lefty! Inother words this drilling and it's resultan movement seems to generate a little less entry angle than the same pin position stacked!

REgards,

Luckylefty

Burak Natal · « **Reply #6 on:** November 19, 2004, 03:12:29 PM »

LuckyLefty, please not you!

In symmetrical balls, position of the CG is irrelevant.
The static weights do not have "significant" effect on reaction with todays cores and covers.
It just dictates the size/depth/location of the balance hole.

However, due to the different weight distribution perceived by the bowler caused by static weights, one can release the ball in slightly different manner. For instance, some can feel more comfortable with finger weight while some others with thumb weight. If there is an effect, this is it.

I do not want to rephrase all the same things here. Please check two very good explanations:

From BrunsRicH (tested with CATS):
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?CategoryID=5&ForumID=16&TopicID=68045

From stanski:
http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=66041&ForumID=18&CategoryID=5

My best regards,
Burak

Brickguy221 · « **Reply #7 on:** November 19, 2004, 03:41:04 PM »

quote:
In symmetrical balls, position of the CG is irrelevant.

I"m not saying that isn't true, but I don't understand how that can be true. If you place the Pin above RF or below RF or beside RF, etc and move CG left or right you are going to see a difference. In some cases, a big difference.
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Retired and bowling on Fixed Income

Burak Natal · « **Reply #8 on:** November 19, 2004, 04:46:52 PM »

quote:
I"m not saying that isn't true, but I don't understand how that can be true. If you place the Pin above RF or below RF or beside RF, etc and move CG left or right you are going to see a difference. In some cases, a big difference.

If you place the pin in different location, you change the angle of the core in relation to your PAP. Means you are manipulating the dynamics.

CG is the heaviest point on the ball on dodo scale which leads to static weights.
In symmetrical balls, when you change the place of the CG, you never change the angle of the core. You just rotate the core on its vertical axis. Since it is again symmetric, there will be no change in shape, thus there will be no change in dynamics. And as I posted before the only difference will be static weights. And again the static weights do not have "significant" effect on reaction with todays cores and covers.

It just dictates the size/depth/location of the balance hole which has greater effect on the reaction since you are changing the shape of the core.

Please note it: "with todays cores". We are not talking about pancake cores of the past!!!!

Best regards,
Burak

jimensminger · « **Reply #9 on:** November 22, 2004, 07:01:03 PM »

I still don't buy it,...but hey that's just me,...
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www.dynothane.com

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #10 on:** November 26, 2004, 06:06:57 AM »

Me neither. The relationship of the weightblock angle in relation to the track is still important to me strong mass bias ball or not. If a strong mass bias ball then the movement is exagerated.

I've posted my disagreement with the Brunswick study. I have never seen it's assumptions, ie speed of ball, axis rotation, tilt etc that throwbot used.

I doubt if it produced no difference that it had only 16 mph off the hand and 60 degrees axis rotation like me! Because when I tip these weighblocks different ways with same pin I see lots of different movements.

BUT, I am a ball reaction maximizer. If throwbot was designed to replicate Walter Ray 19 mph off the hand and 30 degrees axis rotation then I understand it's results as he minimizes the difference in ball reaction thru speed and axis rotation.

Last, is though I believe one can use Brunswick's drilling suggestions and balls together very effectively, I believe Brunswick is the only one that does not change drillings and the cg position on their symmetric drillings and say it doesn't matter.

REgards,

Luckylefty

T-GOD · « **Reply #11 on:** November 27, 2004, 09:58:22 AM »

Now, to blow a hole in this nonsense.

Let's say you have 2 balls, both with 4" pins. In ball 1, place the CG on your axis with the pin 4" from your axis next to the ring finger.

With the other ball, using the same pin placement, you now place the CG in the negative quadrant.

You'll definitely have 2 different ball reactions..!! =:^D

BackToBasics · « **Reply #12 on:** November 27, 2004, 10:13:38 AM »

T-GOD: Is this assuming no hole in each?
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Anthony Chapman

agroves · « **Reply #13 on:** November 28, 2004, 05:57:59 PM »

quote:
Lucky Lefty
We can duplicate 99% of all bowlers releases, 1%-helicopter release for example.
Your release can be duplicated.
When we do the CG test, it has and can be done with any release. We get the results from CATS. We have a fairly extensive CATS system that we use to chart the results.
It is your right as a person and a bowler to form and have your own opinions, i.e. CG relevance. With that being said, in Brunswick balls CG's are irrelevant because of the way we make our cores.
A majority of the time that bowlers equate shifts in Cg's to a certain ball reaction or characteristic, usually there are other variables that are not taken into consideration.
Now with that being said, if your rev rate is higher than approximate 450 rpm, which is about 2% of all bowlers-when measured properly, static weights become somewhat relevant.
But the primary factor in ball reaction (as far as Brunswick is concerned) is surface, pin placement and weight hole-taking the bowlers ability (or lack of) into consideration.

I am making my statements only concerning Brunswick bowling balls (although I know better) to help alleviate any arguments (and I know there will be).
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Ric Hamlin
BRUNSWICK
Bruns Ric H

So, what you're saying is:

If my Inferno was drilled with the pin 4 1/2 but the cg in my palm the reaction would be SIMILAR? It is currently drilled 4 1/2 by 3 1/2, with the pin above the ring and of course the cg is kicked out. I have a balance hole that is 9 inches from my center of grip through cg.

Are you saying the difference in reaction would be caused by the need or lack thereof the weight hole??

Med speed, 16 to 17 on the Quibica system at the pin decks, above 300RPMs. Sorry, I've never had the opportunity to do CATS, so my numbers aren't exact.

Thanks,
Andrew
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FUFU

Author Topic: CG in for low diff balls? (Read 3817 times)

Ragnar

CG in for low diff balls?

jimensminger

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

Leftyhi-trak

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

BigHorhn

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

Ragnar

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

LuckyLefty

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

Burak Natal

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

Brickguy221

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

Burak Natal

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

jimensminger

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

LuckyLefty

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

T-GOD

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

BackToBasics

Re: CG in for low diff balls?

agroves

Re: CG in for low diff balls?