BallReviews

General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: TheGom on December 24, 2014, 01:37:52 PM

Title: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 24, 2014, 01:37:52 PM
Looking go do a Pin Down drilling with a ball that has a  3.5" pin, but with my shorter span of 4", a pin down drilling will put the CG in or near the center of my thumb. Is this an issue?

Is this ball best to drill pin up or look for a 2" pin for a pin down drilling?
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 24, 2014, 01:49:18 PM
Not an issue at all. I would kick the CG out towards your pap a little bit to help distribute some of the weight and add a weight hole as needed.

If the top weight is low you can probably get away with drilling the thumb a little deeper and keeping the fingers a little shallow and not need a weight hole at all.

Just double check the static weight before drilling.
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 24, 2014, 01:55:57 PM
Not an issue at all. I would kick the CG out towards your pap a little bit to help distribute some of the weight and add a weight hole as needed.

If the top weight is low you can probably get away with drilling the thumb a little deeper and keeping the fingers a little shallow and not need a weight hole at all.

Just double check the static weight before drilling.

Thanks, so a 60 x 4.5 x 70 type of drilling.....Pap is 4 1/8 up 5/8 Tilt 17-19 Rota 55-70
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 24, 2014, 02:13:50 PM
Should work just fine and give options for adding a weight hole as needed.
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: billdozer on December 24, 2014, 03:12:10 PM
My best flaring ball had the cg by the thumb.  That sucker was baaaad. 

Roto Grip Cell.  I'll post a pic 8)
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 24, 2014, 03:44:10 PM
The CG is created by a minuscule shift of the core from the true center of the mass thus a 1" pin out is created by a 1/32" shift
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 24, 2014, 08:16:39 PM
So the CG is.....never mind. You be the glutton of punishment I will stick with what was already stated.

Merry Christmas and good luck with the new ball.
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 24, 2014, 08:51:11 PM
I also laid it out 5 x 4 x 3 and like the looks of this as per Roto's site

For me, 49 x 5 x 43....pin above middle finger.

Will talk to my driller and go from there.

Thanks for the info.

Merry Christmas to all
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 24, 2014, 08:55:47 PM
Quit worrying about the pin to CG distance and be more concerned abt enhancing the desired reaction with the pin to pap distance
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 24, 2014, 09:31:44 PM
Quit worrying about the pin to CG distance and be more concerned abt enhancing the desired reaction with the pin to pap distance

No worrying...learning from people like you...now I know and yes, pin to pap is very important as I have never had a 5" before in a Symm ball and since I am struggling on a fresh ripping pattern and even more crazy as the the games go on, maybe a more mellow pin placement will be the ticket.
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 24, 2014, 09:51:38 PM
What ball are you drilling?
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 24, 2014, 10:04:22 PM
What ball are you drilling?

Wrecker
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 24, 2014, 10:19:31 PM
For medium to lighter oil?
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 24, 2014, 10:43:11 PM
You need to understand how you play or attack the lanes...what angles you like to play
If you're straighter go with a 5" pin to pap to get your line in front of you
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 24, 2014, 11:22:36 PM
I have asked for the pattern but know one seems to know.

What I have heard is that AMF Syn are higher friction then other Syn and mainly in the heads. Been told 39-40 feet. I would say more on the lighter side of Medium for sure. At times it looks like everyone can hook it off the lane and at times there is OB. Shot seems to be up the 10-13 boards. High and tight seems to carry the best. I leave a lot of 4 pins, and 10 pins as do many and I have trouble stringing strikes together. I get better as the shot breaks down but most will excel in game 2 and struggle game 3. Speed is good there. I am about 16.5 at release.

Been finally doing better with a pin down Vibe XR the last few sets. Teammate has been doing well with a Uproar....style like mine and the ball is drilled like the Pin up that I mentioned. Lots of energy at the pins. I have a bit more tilt then him though.

Thanks
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 25, 2014, 10:35:26 AM
It's a great ball. I think Rico would be better at suggesting on a layout. Me personally would probably go with the pin up option in the 4.5" - 5" pin range. Then adjust surface as needed to match the condition. Likely closer to 2000 grit gives me a better/consistent rection versus polished when dealing with spotty conditions.

Usually I wait and adjust surface as needed after seeing how box finish does on he lanes.
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 25, 2014, 12:49:02 PM
My comment was geared more towards on how you like to play the lanes or see the lane...and laying the ball out accordingly...
The ball has a characteristic and the layout enhances it...
The Wrecker is a good piece for clean through the fronts and decent movement downlane...pin up will quicken transition but again, choose the correct ball for the condition
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: charlest on December 25, 2014, 12:55:25 PM
I have asked for the pattern but know one seems to know.

What I have heard is that AMF Syn are higher friction then other Syn and mainly in the heads. Been told 39-40 feet. I would say more on the lighter side of Medium for sure. At times it looks like everyone can hook it off the lane and at times there is OB. Shot seems to be up the 10-13 boards. High and tight seems to carry the best. I leave a lot of 4 pins, and 10 pins as do many and I have trouble stringing strikes together. I get better as the shot breaks down but most will excel in game 2 and struggle game 3. Speed is good there. I am about 16.5 at release.

Been finally doing better with a pin down Vibe XR the last few sets. Teammate has been doing well with a Uproar....style like mine and the ball is drilled like the Pin up that I mentioned. Lots of energy at the pins. I have a bit more tilt then him though.

Thanks

Normally if you are leaving 10 pins (usually flat) and then make an adjustment which then leaves solid 4 pins, usually there are at least three things, in my experience, that could be the problem: 1, too much surface on the ball, 2, wrong ball (or inappropriate drilling), or, 3, you're playing the wrong line. Many times, just changing balls, to one that goes slightly longer and has slightly more backend, solves this problem.
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 25, 2014, 01:06:06 PM
Generally to elaborate on that the ball is not slowing down properly...or transitioning from the conditioner to the friction...thus either adjust the surface or even think abt using a weight hole to adjust the flare and transition down lane
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 25, 2014, 03:20:04 PM
Some great post, thanks!

Rico, I am usually slight inside of squared up. Any time I square up (6-9 board) majority of my balls hook early and go left of the head pin, though I like that area and no one plays there. I have tried a pin up 13 Shout at 3000 with a light hand polish and the line is good, but my carry is not. At straight 3000 it went high also.

Also I think your on the right track about the ball not slowing down corcertly if this means standing up or all three phases of lane. This happens when I come off the side to much correct, causing to much tilt which I work on all the time. This would mean more surface and or lower RG correct, but something that still clears the heads easily for the condition that I see, correct? And as for weight holes, I have none on the balls I use...P2.5 or a P3 would make them stand up?

Charlest, the house is proud for being known as a tougher THS and this is why I cannot get a pattern. It does give it to the lefty's as they look to have way more area from watching them. I think what makes a bit tougher on the RH people is carry and soft side boards. Most of my 10's are not flat and the majority of the time if I miss wide "I know" I am going to leave a 10 pin. I average about 1.3 per game the past few years and about 1.8 this year.
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 25, 2014, 03:31:52 PM
Topography dictates as much abt reaction as does conditioning as well as lane play

Wanting to play a part of the lane and the lane not allowing it is generally not the smartest way to attack or approach the lane...if the ball doesn't react or respond properly, this can result in bad carry or lack of as well as over/under reaction...my suggestion would be instead of trying to find a ball to create a desired reaction, try playing a different part of the lane or simply moving your target area closer to the pocket...
Playing the lanes improperly is one of the leading ways to trying to out bowl bad ball reaction it aint gonna happen
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 25, 2014, 05:03:45 PM
Topography dictates as much abt reaction as does conditioning as well as lane play

Wanting to play a part of the lane and the lane not allowing it is generally not the smartest way to attack or approach the lane...if the ball doesn't react or respond properly, this can result in bad carry or lack of as well as over/under reaction...my suggestion would be instead of trying to find a ball to create a desired reaction, try playing a different part of the lane or simply moving your target area closer to the pocket...
Playing the lanes improperly is one of the leading ways to trying to out bowl bad ball reaction it aint gonna happen

Got it....trying to learn this

Does this link of me at that house enhance your thoughts any?
http://youtu.be/VbsZKRKBsFg
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 25, 2014, 07:28:52 PM
If that's your normal shot/delivery I'd move right with my feet as the ball appears to be struggling to get to the pocket...
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 26, 2014, 08:16:39 PM
My comment was geared more towards on how you like to play the lanes or see the lane...and laying the ball out accordingly...
The ball has a characteristic and the layout enhances it...
The Wrecker is a good piece for clean through the fronts and decent movement downlane...pin up will quicken transition but again, choose the correct ball for the condition

Rico  thanks as always fir your time responding mine and other post on here....much appreciated.

Like I said, I am trying to learn every day. Based on what you said above about the Wrecker and it characteristics (which I believe is more Skid/Snap) and to use a layout to enhance it (pin up is my guess) I have to ask you this....about half of the you tube vids are pin down it seems, not pin up....they must be attempting to smooth out the ball on a basic house shot given their specs, which is more speed and more revs then me. Correct?

Your suggestion to move my feet right has been noted. That was last year and I think that I may have improved off of that release to be less off the side with more speed. When I move my feet right, I get an early reaction and go Brooklyn more often then not. 

I know that a Rumble or a Outcry might be a better match up (smoother and less snap over the Wrecker) but I am a perfect reason why ball manufactures love bowlers like me...I just had to try a Wrecker, price wise and looks wise.

Pin up, or pin down is the question at this point....I would ask the Pro Shop person, but he has put heavy oil balls into some friends hands who have no speed..not going down that path.

Looking at a Pin Up...48 x 5 x 43 or Pin Down 60 x 4.25 x 73 as my two choices unless I am missing something
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 26, 2014, 08:20:55 PM
Pin up will help keep the ball on line easier and another idea to slow the ball down or smooth out reaction is a weight hole down
I don't get caught up in dual angles they mean nothing to me 😎 go pin up kick the CG out so that you have static pos side and thumb- 3/4 X 1/4 and this will allow you a weight hole basically anywhere
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 26, 2014, 08:25:00 PM
Pin up will help keep the ball on line easier and another idea to slow the ball down or smooth out reaction is a weight hole down
I don't get caught up in dual angles they mean nothing to me 😎 go pin up kick the CG out so that you have static pos side and thumb- 3/4 X 1/4 and this will allow you a weight hole basically anywhere

Thanks buddy
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 26, 2014, 08:47:35 PM
Pin up will help keep the ball on line easier and another idea to slow the ball down or smooth out reaction is a weight hole down
I don't get caught up in dual angles they mean nothing to me  go pin up kick the CG out so that you have static pos side and thumb- 3/4 X 1/4 and this will allow you a weight hole basically anywhere


I think I heard a thud from someone stroking and dying reading such blasphemy. lol
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 26, 2014, 08:57:23 PM
That's me BlasphemO
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 26, 2014, 09:04:21 PM
You two must be brothers
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 26, 2014, 09:21:03 PM
Nice play on words.



Not brothers but likely too much free time.......way too much
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 26, 2014, 09:48:49 PM
At times I feel it's a gift and a curse (:
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 26, 2014, 10:10:39 PM
While you two are in the holiday mood, tell me what the below info means to you for Sym balls

1) Early hook/late roll with surface
2) Med/late hook/med early roll with less surface
3) Late hook/early roll polished
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: JustRico on December 26, 2014, 10:13:37 PM
Absolutely nothing
Surface dictates how when and where the ball slows down
Largest factor in ball motion
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: kidlost2000 on December 26, 2014, 10:43:50 PM
While you two are in the holiday mood, tell me what the below info means to you for Sym balls

1) Early hook/late roll with surface
2) Med/late hook/med early roll with less surface
3) Late hook/early roll polished

Where did you find that?

It is contradicting unless I am missing something, or misreading.   
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: charlest on December 27, 2014, 12:20:25 PM
Pin up will help keep the ball on line easier and another idea to slow the ball down or smooth out reaction is a weight hole down
I don't get caught up in dual angles they mean nothing to me 😎 go pin up kick the CG out so that you have static pos side and thumb- 3/4 X 1/4 and this will allow you a weight hole basically anywhere

OMIGAWD, Rico!!! Now you've gone and done it.
You've made a lifelong enemy of bowling god #2, the great and powerful Mo.
 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: charlest on December 27, 2014, 12:24:42 PM
While you two are in the holiday mood, tell me what the below info means to you for Sym balls

1) Early hook/late roll with surface
2) Med/late hook/med early roll with less surface
3) Late hook/early roll polished

Where did you find that?

It is contradicting unless I am missing something, or misreading.   

Gotta agree with The Kid here. You're mixing apples and pomegranates. Those aren't ball path reactions; they seem to be contradictory.
Title: Re: CG near the Thumb....OK?
Post by: TheGom on December 27, 2014, 10:52:18 PM
Referenced at this page on ball selection...http://www.modern-bowling.com/Bowling-Coach-Bowling-Balls-Las-Vegas-NV.html