In all of the layouts they give no exact CG to PAP placements. They give areas between the center grip line and out towards the VAL to move the CG so you can add a weight hole for a desired reaction. It is the weight hole not the cg location that cause the desired reactions.

In every layout you can leave the cg on your center grip line and place the weight hole where listed. You will not be able to drill as big of a weight hole as deep as preferred to effect the bowling balls internal diff. As mentioned before, its the weight hole not the CG that makes the difference. Now the CG is relevant to help drill the weight hole in the desired location and size to make it worth while.

Your point varies and I can only go off of what your reading from a drill sheet I can't see. Your point about the Ebonite article isn't correct because what your saying they state in the article about the specific CG to PAP distances isn't true. They give suggested areas to locate the cg to add a weight hole to a specific area and then change the reaction of the ball. None have the pin in the same location and only move the CG with no weight hole to change the balls reaction.

Now I can only assume that what your reading in the Bounty drill sheet that is different from the one Global post on their website is true.

So on the Bounty drill sheet the pin to PAP is identical and only the cg is moved 1" and is suppose to have different reactions with the cg being at either 4" or a different reaction at 5" ?

The reason I find that hard to believe is because I don't have the mentioned drill sheet and because there is no way to determine the exact top weight of the ball to be specific when making that suggestion.

Example being,

One ball has a 3" pin and 2 ozs of topweight
one ball has a 3" pin and 4 ozs of topweight

Both balls when drilled identical and the cg is say 4" from your pap will have two very different side weights at that time prior to adding a weight hole.

Lets say you have the same two above bowling balls and both have the exact same layouts and the lighter topweight ball has the CG 4" from the pap and the heavier topweight ball has the CG 5" from your pap, because of the difference in top weight and location, they can have the exact same side weight on the ball with the exact same pin to pap location and two different CG to PAP locations. Are you saying the will react different because the CGs are different distances from the PAP even though the side weight will be the same?

Shifting the CG and leaving the top of the core/pin in the exact same location, doesn't move/shift the core on a symmetric ball. It is only shifting excess weight that can allow for larger weight holes, which then change the core shape and effect the balls reaction.

When you watch this vid you can see two balls drilled the same with two different cg locations and two very different side weights. You also see after that demonstration the inner core of the balls and what happens to the core as the cg is moved around the cores axis/Pin.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q8vX_yoM0Q4

I've thought a bit about this post and done a little work on a couple of balls(symmetric).

Before I post a little on my results.....

I was wondering if anyone knew back with the Throwbot testing referenced above,,
What is the axis rotation that the throwbot was using in the video posted by Impending Doom?

Regards,

Luckylefty

To me it all depends where your PSA winds up whether it's symmetrical cores or asymmetrical cores.  You use x holes on the gradient line to tweak desired ball reaction.  The issue being most pro shops do not have a Determinator so where the PSA winds up is up for question.  Note on the RG Shout that I am posting where the PSA is with no x hole and where the CG is and most would think the PSA would be in the thumb hole but it is not.  The actual drilling angle PAP to pin to PSA on this ball is 105*x 4.25"x 65*.  Ball is a solid nice length because of it's 1500 polished OOB and heavy arc on backend without a lot of over reaction.  My PAP is 5" over and 0.

LL--I would say that because you have a reasonable amount of axis rotation you struggle from the left side in that you maybe the only one on that side of the lane and get very little head break down as well as carry down.  Hence your side of the lane can be either a boon if you are a lower axis rotation player or a bane when you are higher.

I'd say you need to learn to lessen your axis rotation to calm the ball down off the spot.  I assume you are speaking more of house type conditions that have less side to side amount of blend and have a lot of friction to the outside.  Use a forward roll type of release to calm the ball down off the spot and maintain speed.

What I have learned in these situations (see my stats in profile) is that I use weaker balls like the Shout with weaker layouts like the one above or 1:30 drills as you suggest on the fresh house type condition as they break down I can move to something stronger.  1:30 layouts for me are good from the outside but not as good on carry from the inside.  With the Shout above I generally use a line of something like slide 23 with12 at arrows to 7-8 at break point and early on try to cut down on axis rotation with more forward roll.  As I move in and play increases I go to more axis rotation/side roll or a stronger ball (QZ-1 Red/Frantic pin up) if my carry suffers.  I can use the Shout OOB 1500 polished without the over reaction because of layout and 2.57 .022.  I am also bowling house shots on 1st Gen. Bruns Anvilane and have that for me with the 16 yr. old Anvilane though the surface is very hard the panels are very worn and polished equipment is a must anything with some surface tends to bleed energy quickly and hits poorly.  Low Rg balls for me on this condition and lane surface also tend to bleed energy.   

My reality is that most decent players with a decent hand and medium speed can use any lower cost entry level ball like a RG Shout or Motiv Ascent Solid and do well with them and save money on ball cost.  Generally most bowlers are using medium to high end pieces when they do not need to on house shots.  Only folks that need high end equipment on house shots are the high speed rev challenged bowler.

So with cg placement meaning little. You could ultimately drill a ball upside down with the cg above the fingers as long as static weights were legal, you would get the same.reaction as if the cg was rotated 180 degrees from that?

Yes, for symmetrics and depending on the weight hole. Pin placement is the key for symmetrics.

so what happens with a pin in ball or a 1in pin and cg distance?? i have a total nv with that and was wondering if cg placement has any effect on the ball other than being legal? or if i can put cg anywhere and just use the mass bias for ballreaction??

Stickz,

With a pin in ball i would recommend that pin and cg in the palm to provide normally depths of drilling or mark the PSA 6.75" from the pin, put the PSA beside the thumb and keep the pin about a half inch from the ring and bury the fingers while drilling and that way there's a possibility of adding a flare increasing hole later. But, same rules apply. It limits what you can do to a ball without doing something stupid like pin up and having to bury the fingers add/or P1, you can do it but its just easier to do the two above layouts. When i layout a ball, im trying to optimize the ball to their stats. If i know their stats arent going to match up with a pin in then i drill another pin distanced ball.
As far as the total nv goes, will have the same affect as above. CG on any ball will only have an affect on statics and weight hole placement. When you move too much of the weight away from 1 quadrant you will be require to have a weight hole.