Post by: Polish_Hammer on August 04, 2011, 11:12:07 PM
So I have been having problems staying to the inside of the ball and keeping my elbow flying around more so than ever. I went to my local ball driller and said I think I want to dry a dropped ring finger or something to get a little more palm on the ball and get the ball more inside my hand and also my lack of flexibility in my hand. He reccomended turning the ring finger a liitle and offsetting the thumb to "give the feel of a dropped ring finger" with the same span. So I have gone from 1/8 forward and 1/8 under on my thumb to 1/32 reverse and no lateral. I will be trying it out this weekend and I am always open to trying new thinks especcially while having problems. My fears would be that even a little reverse will have me squeezing and or putting strain on my tendons. Not sure if too many people use this type of grip other than Jeff Carter
Post by: jodyk24 on August 05, 2011, 03:22:35 PM
The Collier grip and others have been around for quite a while, I remember the drill was around in the 1970's and 1980's. The trend now seems to be bowlers are trying more forward pitch and shorter spans. Each bowler is different and what works for one won't work for others due to flexibility in their thumb and fingers. I know a bowler who purchased a ball from Jeff Carter. His hand specs matched up with Jeff's, but he could not get the ball to come off of his hand. There are several bowlers that use the Collier grip at some time in their bowling career. Norm Duke has used a form of the Collier grip in the past and he may still use it. Click on the link below and scroll down to PBA Tech talk, Norm Duke and look at his specs that he has used in the past. Going from forward pitch to reverse pitch on the thumb, you need to pay attention to the finger pitch and span if you are concerned about tendon strain. A good ball driller knows what to look for. I hope this helps you out some.
jodyk24
Post by: lefty50 on August 05, 2011, 03:37:10 PM
Signature? I dont need no stinking signature...
Post by: dougb on August 05, 2011, 08:52:47 PM
Post by: The Bowling Pariah on August 05, 2011, 10:23:13 PM
Whether the offset thumb actually exists or not, seems to be more a question of semantics than it is a question on reality. SOMETHING obviously does exist.
The way my drillings are measured off, it WOULD be an "offset" thumb, due to the grip center line being drawn perpindicular to the finger span line, then having to measure 3/8 inch laterally from that along my thumb span line to find the top center of my thumbhole. This works perfectly for me every time.
There is a drilling technique called CLT, or Center Line Transfer/Transposition, in which the thumb is "centered", then the finger holes are drilled at differing distances from that, giving the visual effect that the finger holes are the ones that are "offset".
Either style seems to be effective in producing holes in the proper geometry, with the difference being the reference point from which pitches are measured, which CAN make a difference.
My way works for me, and I already know what pitches work with this technique for me, so I stay with it for that reason.
Post by: JohnP on August 06, 2011, 09:38:43 AM
Offsetting the thumb changes the spans and pitches. These changes can then be measured and duplicated using a standard T grip, but the result will not be the same as the grip determined by standard fitting procedures. -- JohnP
Post by: Polish_Hammer on August 06, 2011, 01:01:19 PM
Well, I threw my first five games with the new grip. Noticed a few things. It is definitely easier to stay behind the ball and release up the back. My hand felt a little better weight distribution on the fingers and slightly more hand surface on the ball but not where I felt like I was palming the ball.
I tried several different hand positions: Fingers spread, pinky in, pinky in and tucked. The only hand position I had trouble with was when I cocked the wrist and tried to get around the wall with more side roll and axis tilt. That could be me or I might need to add a little lateral pitch away in the thumb. I'll have my nall driller check it out monday and maybe tweak that.
Post by: lefty50 on August 06, 2011, 02:59:27 PM
Hammer, did you like it enough to decide it's a change your going to make permanently?
Signature? I dont need no stinking signature...
Post by: Polish_Hammer on August 06, 2011, 03:36:31 PM
Yup I'm going to go with this for a while. might make a slight tweak, but for me I'm able to keep my elbow from flying out and that has been my biggest problem
Post by: lefty50 on August 06, 2011, 06:17:34 PM
That's good to hear. I'm going to give it a try also. I have a fairly new driller who's excellent, but seemed reluctant to do this whewn I spoke to him previously. Although he is probably already familiar with this, any references to documentation that would help me learn more when I discuss it with him would be appreciated.
Signature? I dont need no stinking signature...
Post by: Polish_Hammer on August 07, 2011, 08:06:00 AM
If you go to Jeff Carter's website he has his layout documented, which is close to what I have now although he is slightly forward pitch
Post by: lefty50 on August 07, 2011, 09:49:03 AM
Thanks, I will.
Signature? I dont need no stinking signature...
Post by: JustRico on August 07, 2011, 05:17:54 PM
You changed the thumb pitch in such a way that it made it easier to stay, in your words, behind the ball better.
When you use palm or under (towards the palm) and forward in the pitch makes your thumb stay in the ball longer through the rotation, thus making you feel as if your elbow is flying around the ball or your hand is coming over the top of the ball....you have to rotate your hand to a point so the angle of the thumb hole allows the thumb to release not the angle being such that the thumb releases when it wants to. By adjusting the angle (assuming the span is correct) it is easier for you to release the ball at a more comfortable position.
And trust me....you can duplicate any so-called offest with a T grip....it is a round object. Sorry to burst your bubble.
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: Polish_Hammer on August 08, 2011, 06:38:27 AM
I love people who want to talk semantics. "There is no such thing as an offset thumb." " it's not called right pitch its called under pitch." Jeff Carter, myself, and numerous ball drillers are truely without a clue. People call it "an offset thumb" because that 's what it looks like when you see it, Nobody said you can't measure off a t-grip.
Post by: JustRico on August 08, 2011, 06:42:45 AM
So you read nothing else other than I am preaching symantics.....REALLY? And I never attacked you or whoever the else you would like to say are good ball drillers. I stated that you changed the angle of the thumb hole more than anything else, drastically I might add...and the ball came off your hand...WOW NO WAY
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: JustRico on August 08, 2011, 07:00:14 AM
And for the record it's reality...
For a while in the late 80's and early 90's I used an offset and realized I did it due to the fact that it was easy to lay out....
I'm not attacking you or anyone else that uses something that works, I stated you can measure however you want...you can call it whatever you want...you want to talk about this person or that person using it....how great of ball drillers you are or anyone else....I got a pretty good resume when it comes to drilling BTW....I have drilled a few balls and I can back up what I write. You want to call it semantics...I call it reality. It's a round object, plain & simple. It's an angle not a pitch....anything else?
The views and opinions expressed by myself are solely those of mine and NO one else, nor are they affiliated with anyone else.
Post by: Juggernaut on August 08, 2011, 10:40:10 PM
Here is a picture of my ball:
This may be only an optical illusion, but to me it looks like it is offset to the left of center, and that is the way it was achieved. We put the T grip line on it, marked the thumb span line, then moved 3/8inch left of center.
Post by: JohnP on August 11, 2011, 08:51:57 AM
There is no optical illusion, the thumb is offset. What has happened is: the ring finger span has lengthened and the middle finger span has shortened, both slightly; the pitches on all three holes have changed because they now should be measured on a line from the center of the bridge to the center of the thumb hole. If this works for you, great, but your grip is no longer the same as specified by standard fitting guidelines (which, I suppose, was your objective anyway). Also, your layout is no longer the same since the grip center has shifted to the left. -- JohnP
Edited by JohnP on 8/11/2011 at 8:51 AM
Post by: Juggernaut on August 11, 2011, 10:27:49 AM
JP,
I understand what you'e saying, and I agree. In an earlier post, I think it was said that the only difference between the method I am using and the CLT method is the point of reference from which the pitches should be measured, and that point would change slightly using one method vs the other.
Yes, my span is an extended ring finger span, which was tried by merely moving the ring finger up 1/8in on a ball, but it didn't "feel" right, that was when the driller suggested using this "Collier" method to achieve the correct span. Now, even though it actually MEASURES out the same as the simply extended ring finger, this method makes it "feel" correct.
Whatever it is about the three dimensional geometrics of holes on the surface of the ball, and their positions leading to their eventual drilling angles, it seems one method makes it "feel" correct and the other does not. This leads me to believe that, while my understanding does not let me explain it fully, there IS some difference between simply extending a finger hole or moving the thumbhole to achieve the desired grip specs.
I'm not trying to start another argument or make any claims. All I'm saying is, I've tried all three methods, and all three had a different "feel" to them, so there IS some difference. What that difference is, I cannot quantify.
Post by: T C 300 on August 18, 2011, 12:37:50 AM
i got a ball from a member on here couple yrs back... it was one that belonged to carter.. had the grip he used around the 07 season (ball is from 07).
it fit my hand pretty good, had to get used to a "different feel"... had 3 300's with it, few 760's + and 23 strikes in a row. for me, everything had to be inline(timing etc etc) for me to score with that ball. if i was throwing it bad i would bowl REALLY bad! there was no in between with it..
i also know my rev rate went up..??? i already turn the ball enough but you could deff tell there was more revs...
Post by: bullred on August 18, 2011, 01:33:03 AM
tc300.....you must be the answer to the THB wet dream. 3 300's and multiple 300's. you must be the "Tush Hog" of your THS league. Do the girls swoon when you pass by?????
Post by: bullred on August 18, 2011, 01:41:35 AM
For many years I have been drilling a layout that probably qualifies as an "offset" drill. All it is, is laying out the finger pitches to line up with the arm. Generally the pitches of the fingers line up with with a point about 1" right(RH) of the thumb centerline. Drill the middle finger at zero(on a centerline from the center of middle finger to 1" right of thumb center) and line up the ring finger parallel with the middle finger.
Post by: Impending Doom on August 23, 2011, 02:13:48 PM
Personally, I feel that it has to do with if you have a finicky hand or not. Some people do not. I do. I know some things for a fact with my hand. When my hand lays on the ball with just my thumb in, my fingers centerline is not the same as the actual centerline.
Now, if I twist my hand and make it line up, my thumb doesn't lay in the hole correctly. In the direction that it is pushing, it could make me come around the ball early, or pop my elbow out. So, I choose to go the ergonomic route, and do what my body tells me it should do.
What this ends up doing is it allows my fingers to lay in the hole at the angle in which my hand is designed, not what some other person thinks is right. Now, I know the argument of "Yeah yeah, if you just do it off of the regular lines, and just "copy" the pitches off of the ball, it will fit the exact same.", and it's depends on how feel orientated you are. Personally, you will never gain the same feel, even if you "copy the pitches", because there are more forces at work in the hand than just "Do the thumb and fingers fit?"
If your thumb pitch was wrong, you would know it, right? What about the angle of your oval in your thumb? Would you feel that as well, or would you just deal with it, knowing that something could be changed in which would make you release the ball cleaner without effort?
This is a "You say tomato, I say tomahto" conversation, but it works for people that can feel it. Those of you that can't feel it, God bless ya.
The sky is falling
The end is near
The final warning
The sun disappears.
Post by: Polish_Hammer on August 25, 2011, 10:42:07 AM
Well put
ID