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Author Topic: Confused about PAP  (Read 2808 times)

Moon57

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Confused about PAP
« on: November 17, 2006, 07:01:06 AM »
Are there 2 different PAPs? Some ball drilling layouts define the pap as a certain distance from the pin and a certain distance from the cg. The ball isn't drilled yet so there isn't a track on it. Yet they know where the pap is. On a web page showing how to use the armidillo they are working from the bowlers established track on the ball to find the pap. Do both methods wind up at the same spot? I'm curious.

Thanks
Dick
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shelley

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Re: Confused about PAP
« Reply #1 on: November 17, 2006, 03:12:31 PM »
No, there are not two different PAPs.  The layouts that say "the pin is X distance from the PAP and the CG is Y distance from the PAP" is simply how the driller chose to lay it out.  They are the same.

You find your PAP one of several ways.  You can use a piece of tape and a low-flaring ball.  Put the tape where you think your PAP is.  Throw it.  If the tape looks stationary in the first 10-15 feet, it's on your PAP.  If not, move it and try again.  You could also throw a low-flaring ball, arrange it on a spinner so that the first oil track doesn't wobble (i.e., it's on the equator), and for righties with the right of the grip facing up, the north pole is your PAP.  You can use an Armadillo as well.  The accuracy of any or all of those methods is slightly debatable, and will depend on just how little flare the ball gets.  A ball with no flare should be the most accurate.  Your PAP is then declared to be a certain distance from the center of grip and so far above or below the midline.

Once you have the PAP, and you want to drill a ball with, for instance, a 4x3 layout (4" pin-to-PAP, 3" CG-to-PAP), draw a circle around the pin with a radius of 4".  Do the same with the CG.  One of the places they intersect will be the spot you call your PAP (the other intersection will be in a wonky spot).  Using the distance from the center-of-grip to your PAP on the other ball, back out where the center-of-grip will be on the new ball.

Summary:  You find where the PAP is in relation to the center of grip on an existing ball.  Then you choose the layout you want (you can also do degrees for the CG/MB instead of some specific distance, and there's a vid of a Big B staffer laying out a Zone Classic like that).  The layout will tell you the spot that has to be the PAP on the new ball.  Then you back out where to put the finger and thumb so that that spot actually is the PAP.

SH
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Moon57

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Re: Confused about PAP
« Reply #2 on: November 17, 2006, 05:18:39 PM »
Thanks Shelly. I had to re-read your post about 10 times but it finally started to sink in. The important measurements are from the centerline of the grip to the pap and from the midline to the pap. Yes? Another question, the track flares seem to cross one another at the same 2 points 180 deg apart. Would a line through these 2 points cross the pap? At 90 deg to this line would a line drawn perpendicular through the ( I'm having trouble describing this ) farthest away points of the track flares cross the pap? Could this be an easy way to find the pap on any ball with alot of flare rings?

Dick
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JohnP

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Re: Confused about PAP
« Reply #3 on: November 17, 2006, 07:22:06 PM »
quote:
The important measurements are from the centerline of the grip to the pap and from the midline to the pap.


Yes.  To determine the PAP location on an existing ball you measure over on the midline to the vertical axis line (VAL), then up or down the VAL to the PAP.  For example, 5 1/4" horizontal and 3/4" up.  To locate the grip center on a new ball, first you have to determine where the PAP needs to be as shelley described.  Then you measure down the VAL and across the midline to pinpoint the grip center.  There is another dimension needed, however, to define the VAL.  A common one used is the pin height above the midline.  Another that can be used (Storm has popularized this) is the distance from the VAL to the pin.

quote:
Another question, the track flares seem to cross one another at the same 2 points 180 deg apart. Would a line through these 2 points cross the pap?


Another way to define the PAP - it is the point on the positive side of the ball that is equidistance from every point on the initial track (there is another axis point, called the negative axis point or NAP on the negative side of the ball.  It will be in the center of the initial track circle.).  So, yes, a line from any point on the initial track ring to a point a true 180 degrees on the other side of the track will pass through the PAP.  So, if the two bowties (that's what they're called) are a true 180 degrees apart, yes.

[
quote:
At 90 deg to this line would a line drawn perpendicular through the ( I'm having trouble describing this ) farthest away points of the track flares cross the pap? Could this be an easy way to find the pap on any ball with a lot of flare rings?


I'm not 100% sure I understand what you're asking.  But as I described above any perpendicular line between two points 180 degrees apart on the initial track line will pass through the PAP.  So if you draw multiple lines they will all cross at the PAP.  This is essentially what you do when you use the spinner method that shelley described.  You set the initial oil track so that the point dead on top of the ball is equidistance from any point on the track.  

Sometimes it can be difficult to exactly determine the initial track line.  That's why it's important when you think you have the PAP located to mark it with a piece of white tape and throw it.  If the tape appears motionless for the first 10 ft or so the ball travels, your location is correct.  If it wobbles you need to adjust the tape location until it is stationary.  If you use a high flare ball to do this check, you'll have to have an observer watch the tape for you because it will begin to flare before you pick it up in your vision.  

By the way, I like your analytical mind.  --  JohnP  

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Moon57

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Re: Confused about PAP
« Reply #4 on: November 18, 2006, 07:51:17 AM »
Thanks John. Geometry was one of my favorite classes in high school and it seems like a drill pattern is just alot of geometry. I think I've got this pap thing down now. I started visualizing a clear plastic ball with a red weight block in it with a red pin running to the surface of the ball. A black solid rod running from the pap to the nap and the pap end of the rod connected to the grip by black lines. When I imagine this I can start moving the grip and rod as a unit ( grip on the surface rod in the ball ) in relation to the weight block and pin. It makes it alot easier for me to imagine what the ball is doing as it goes down the alley and what effects different drill layouts might have.

  I've got a question about the grip. When a thumb or finger hole is pitched forward, reverse, or lateral by 1/8, 1/4 etc what do the numbers actually mean? 1/8 of what in relation to what? I tried to find an answer but must not have been looking in the right spot.

Dick
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Jeff Ussery

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Re: Confused about PAP
« Reply #5 on: November 18, 2006, 08:34:43 AM »
Geomtetry is the coolest!

To answer your questions about pitch:
Pitch is a relationship between the center of the drilled hole and the center of the bowling ball.  By moving x and y axis tables on a drilling machine or jig, you are changing the relationship between the center of the drill bit and the center of the ball.  This is creating "pitch" in the hole.  Pitches are described as left, right, forward, and reverse.  There are certainly other terms you will hear regarding pitch, such as under, away, palm, lateral, back, postive, negative, etc.  These terms are not universally used in the pro shop world, and really should not be used when trying to describe the pitch in a hole.  There are several pro shop operators who consider these words to mean one thing, while other operators consider it to mean another.  Sticking with the terms left, right, forward, and reverse are your best bet.

Hope this helps!
--------------------
Jeff Ussery
Powerhouse Training Clinics
www.proshoptraining.com
Bowl to Win!
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JohnP

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Re: Confused about PAP
« Reply #6 on: November 18, 2006, 10:18:24 AM »
quote:
When a thumb or finger hole is pitched forward, reverse, or lateral by 1/8, 1/4 etc what do the numbers actually mean? 1/8 of what in relation to what?


Jeff pretty well explained it.  The number is the measurement in inches that the center of the hole would be away from the center of the ball in the given direction if the hole were extended to the center of the ball.  So essentially the two numbers, left/right side pitch and forward/reverse pitch, define the angle the hole is drilled at.  The directions are defined looking at the ball with the thumb down and the fingers up.  So for a right hander left pitch would be away from the pinkie finger and right pitch would be toward it.  --  JohnP

Added on edit:  Reevolution has posted a great thread called Unofficial FAQ.  It contains volumes of information useful to anyone, but especially for a beginner interested in learning more about ball fitting and dynamics.  A link to the thread is below.

http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5

Edited on 11/18/2006 11:14 AM
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Moon57

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Re: Confused about PAP
« Reply #7 on: November 18, 2006, 01:55:08 PM »
Thanks Jeff and John.

Quote
"The number is the measurement in inches that the center of the hole would be away from the center of the ball in the given direction if the hole were extended to the center of the ball.".

That's what I was looking for. Now I can visualize what the holes look like when they're pitched forward, reverse, left, and right in relation to the center of the ball. Thanks again.

Dick
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