Author Topic: Detriminator (Read 3918 times)

BuddiesProShopcom - Bill · « **on:** December 29, 2003, 02:33:33 AM »

I don't if this has been discussed before, but I was wondering if any pro shop have used these. We just bought one of these are are trying it out on a lot of the shop guys balls. When you consider the ball's preferred spin axis to be not important. Some balls take such a long time to spin to their preferred spin axis that I was wondering if you should even use the mass bias to lay the ball out.
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Thanks
Bill
BuddiesProShop.com
"The Place All Bowlers Shop"

MTFD24 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 29, 2003, 05:45:02 PM »

Bill,
Although I am not a fitter/driller, I may suggest that you contact Jack Jurek or Bruce Heim at Bowlers Choice Pro Shop in the Buffalo, NY area. They have a website that can be reached via www.BowlWNY.com.
Bruce and his brother Doug are well known as the ones running the Brunswick booth at the nationals for years.
Jack has had one of the determinator's for quite some time, and can probably give you quite a load of info. I know Mo visits him often, and he is well versed in it.
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T-GOD · « **Reply #2 on:** December 29, 2003, 06:00:16 PM »

Another thing to consider is that after drilling the ball, does the PSA now change..? So, what I'm getting at is you're using the original PSA/MB to layout the ball, now after drilling, is the PSA now in a different place..? If so, wouldn't this make your original calculations wrong now..? =:^D

Next Level PS · « **Reply #3 on:** December 29, 2003, 11:57:47 PM »

Bill, also some balls do not stabilize to a PSA, they just migrate inwhich is better for drier conditions.
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www.nextlevelproshop.com

also know as VortexII

T-GOD · « **Reply #4 on:** December 30, 2003, 10:46:37 AM »

King, a ball only takes about 2 - 3 seconds to roll down the lane and all balls on the market have over a 6 second spin time, with most way over 20 seconds. So, why would knowing where the PSA is be of any importance..? =:^D

Edited on 12/30/2003 1:10 PM

Next Level PS · « **Reply #5 on:** December 30, 2003, 11:12:23 AM »

Response time when it encounters friction. faster the spin time the quicker it reponse to friction... My guesstimation.
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www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com

also know as VortexII

T-GOD · « **Reply #6 on:** December 30, 2003, 12:14:06 PM »

PS, that didn't answer my question. My question was concerning where the PSA is, not the times different balls have. =:^D

laner7pin · « **Reply #7 on:** December 30, 2003, 12:20:31 PM »

We have one our shop and spin all mid-high end balls. It usually takes a few seconds for the PSA to migrate, but once it does, it stays there (for if you spin it for 20 seconds). We spin all the Mo balls by lining up the MB on the side and the pin in front (X and Y axis). Mo balls usually move slightly, but it gives the driller a more accurate reading as to where it is. Scott (bossman) lays the ball out based on the placements and then drills it up. I spin em, he drills em.
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BuddiesProShopcom - Bill · « **Reply #8 on:** December 30, 2003, 06:44:46 PM »

We have spun them after they are drilled and the PSA moves, where it moves depends on if you drill a finger hole deeper, and where you put the weight hole.

I have spun a couple balls were both spots were above the pin

* *

Pin

CG

Trying to figure out what you do then.
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Thanks
Bill
BuddiesProShop.com
"The Place All Bowlers Shop"

T-GOD · « **Reply #9 on:** December 30, 2003, 07:34:53 PM »

King,

quote:
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all balls on the market have over a 6 second spin time
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is not true.

Maybe 1 ball has a 5.74 spin time. So basically all balls have over a 6 second spin time. Why are you quibbling with me..?

quote:
second, the amount of time the ball has to perform on the lane is irrelevant to how long a balls time to the psa from any given initial axis is.

What kind of statement is that..? It's totally relevant. If the spin time is 40 seconds and the ball takes 3 seconds to travel down the lane, the psa isn't going to move much from where it is to begin with, as the ball goes down the lane. So, who cares where it is, how long it takes or where it will move to, because it will never get there..!! All you need is the proper core angle to begin with..!!

It seems to me that Mo Pinel is suckering everyone into buying a $3,000 machine to double check the manufacturers quality control..? I have better things to spend my money on. If the balls are manufacturered properly, and marked properly, you won't need this machine. Then, after you place holes in the ball, everything changes..!!

quote:
the key is knowing the relationship between the strength/location of the psa and how it influences the loss of initial rotation and tilt as the ball encounters varying levels of friction.

King, listen to your Mo Pinel psycho babble. You'd have to be a rocket scientist to figure all this out, with all the different cores, lane conditions and releases.

If Mo knew all of this, he'd be the best bowler in the world, or he'd be the best coach in the world, with every pro bowler in his back pocket. Mo is smart, but he's no rocket scientist, so how are you, or anyone else going to figure all this out..?

What he is doing is confusing everyone, with all his crazy core designs and physics psycho babble, making things more difficult. Trying to learn/figure all this out is a waste of time and money..!! But if you want to try, go right ahead.

Remember, the best advice is "KISS", Keep It Simple Stupid..!! =:^D

Next Level PS · « **Reply #10 on:** December 30, 2003, 08:31:17 PM »

I know he didn't...I thought T-god and Randy was bad. Ticking off KOTM can be more than most can handle.
--------------------
www.bowlritelanes.com
www.nextlevelproshop.com

also know as VortexII

Edited on 12/30/2003 9:30 PM

Pinbuster · « **Reply #11 on:** December 30, 2003, 08:40:45 PM »

T-God, for once we are in complete agreement.

T-GOD · « **Reply #12 on:** December 31, 2003, 08:50:06 AM »

King,

quote:
Track and Morich use a 60* time (physical position equidistant from all three axis). Using the 60* average times there are 6 balls that I am aware of under 6 seconds (undrilled)

So now Mo uses a 60* angle to "skew" the results to what he's preaching. But think about it. When the core falls to a PSA in a faster time, that means the core is "top/bottom heavy"/lopsided and/or is "loping" at a higher degree.

How good are you going to bowl with a core that "lopes"..? Yeah, it'll look good on the backend, if you have some dry boards, but you can't control it and/or it won't work on a variety of conditions. You will not score very good with this ball over a longer period of time, because it's too condition specific.

quote:
it would be nice if the manufactures could manage better quality control (although tighter tolerances cost boukou $$$).

So they just rely on the pro shop to spend an extra $3,000 to do the quallity control for them.

quote:
I disagree with you on this point- it is predictable and it does matter where it goes. It is about core shape. The very act of drilling the ball makes these cores more dynamic. It makes cores asymmetrical (or even more so).

So you can predict where the PSA moves to, after drilling, before you drill the ball..? Now taking that into consideration, are you tellling me that you lay the ball out based on the "ending PSA"..? Yeah, right..!!

quote:
â€¦..btw, last I looked, a free spinner cost about the same as a quality beam scale.

The last time I looked, a new Kaufman scale runs about $1,000 - $1,200. A determinator is around $3,000. That's not about the same in my book.

quote:
I am sorry that Mo confuses you.

Mo doesn't confuse me, King, because I've known him personally for over 20 years. I CAN understand his psycho babble, which is why I know most of it's CRAP..!! HAPPY NEW YEAR..!! =:^D)

Edited on 12/31/2003 12:14 PM

janderson · « **Reply #13 on:** January 01, 2004, 11:36:25 PM »

Always wondered, since plugged and redrilled balls are legal (as long as they are within the other legal parameters) everywhere but for the national PBA events, what prevented the average joe with a decent knowledge of physics from customizing cores by drilling, plugging, and then doing the "real" drilling.
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T-GOD · « **Reply #14 on:** January 02, 2004, 11:25:40 AM »

quote:
all cores that are not round cause "lope".

That's not true. They may wobble, but not lope. There's a difference.

As far as versatility goes, I'm talking about cores with higher degrees of lope. Cores that lope won't be as good on oil as cores that don't.

Well it looks like the price of a Determinator has come down. I know Mo from the old days as a lane resurfacer, and leave it at that. He was with Poly at the time.

BTW, no you don't. You are not calculating where the ending PSA will be, then placing it certain distances from your PAP when you lay out the ball to be drilled. That's impossible to predict with all the different cores and weight combinations. =:^D

Edited on 1/2/2004 12:24 PM

Author Topic: Detriminator (Read 3918 times)

BuddiesProShopcom - Bill

Detriminator

MTFD24

Re: Detriminator

T-GOD

Re: Detriminator

Next Level PS

Re: Detriminator

T-GOD

Re: Detriminator

Next Level PS

Re: Detriminator

T-GOD

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laner7pin

Re: Detriminator

BuddiesProShopcom - Bill

Re: Detriminator

T-GOD

Re: Detriminator

Next Level PS

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Pinbuster

Re: Detriminator

T-GOD

Re: Detriminator

janderson

Re: Detriminator

T-GOD

Re: Detriminator