See if this helps
Just recently finished driving 3000 miles,
to beautiful upstate NY and back.
I told my girlfriend I wanted to go with her!
Yeah, Sort of! But also it was a trek, to find ball drillers who did Center Line transfer. (I've got my priorities straight! right?).
In search of Brian Omara who drills for the Dick Ritger schools in Ithaca NY but I just had such a booked schedule that even though he made time for me I had to fit in a 6:00 am meeting with a guy named Joe Moore at AMF Williamsburg bowl. (Nice guy, obviously very hard working, and his shop name is Bowling Techniques).
Joe, I'd heard was also an expert in CLT. He said I had a hand that was very appropriate for it. (Over 5 degrees of twist off the center line).
I am 15 degrees.
Here's why if you haven't heard it. A couple years ago I was doing pretty good in my first year of bowling. I was using a very stretched spans. Since then I went to a more normal span for my hand! Since then here's what my ball sounds like on the lane, bump, bump! Not good!
The pitches I used to use on the stretched span no longer look right.
0 forward and back for some reason makes me look all krinkled up in the
fingers. Reverse pitch seems to end up with me losing the ball too quick and losing one of the strengths of my bowling, the ball staying what looks like and feels like forever on my fingers. Giving me lots of last second control of the ball. (A PBA friend of mine calls it my Earl Anthony release, very flattering).
Joe took a lot of time analyzing my hand and explaining his whole method.
Very impressive and a very impressive shop!
To make this long story end. The effect of turning the ball and drilling the spans in the direction that your fingers pull is very interesting.
I now seem to be able to hold on to the ball like I did when I had a very long span. I'm using 0 forward reverse again but my fingers no longer look krinkled all up like they had with the traditional drilling method and 0 reverse.
T GOD (who I respect) and Brian Omara have gotten in to quite a debate over whehter the CLT is really just another set of pitches. Here is my observation.
The pitches if measured in relation to the traditional method of pointing straight back to your thumb are different. For example(remember on lefty),
Joe had me listed for my middle finger as 5/8 right and 0 forward/reverse.
This drilled along with the ball turned 15 degrees. IF measured in relation to the traditional method back to the thumb the pitches on the middle finger are more like 1/2 and 3/16 forward. The middle finger drilled at 1/4 left and 0 forward/reverse ends up if measured back to the thumb at 5/16 left and 1/16 reverse.
Note if measure along a 15 degree line tilted to the right the pitches are as drilled. If measured back to the thumb along the traditional center line they are different.
My conclusion. They really are a different set of pitches! However to calculate them would be doable but difficult and actually can be done more easily by just by spinning the table or ball the 15 degrees necessary for me.
Final, First impression is it works! My PBA buddy said as soon as he saw me.
Great! You've got your Earl Anthony(obviously an exageration) release back! The balls over the foul line,, the sound of the ball is no longer bump bump but shhhhhhh!
If you are having problems like I described try CLT!
REgards,
Luckylefty
To contact Brian Omara, message on this forum, to contact Joe Moore at bowling techniques call 757 564-9240
PS I tried this on a Voodoo when I got home see my review!
Edited on 8/12/2002 8:20 AM
its when you turn your finger holes so your thumb and finger holes arent lined up..... it makes more sense if you put your thumb in the ball and lay your fingers over your finger holes.... you will notice that your fingers lay across the holes at an angle..... you turn your finger holes to match your fingers when u lay em across the ball........
the point of it is to put the ball in the palm of your hand which inturn will help you turn the ball more effortlessly.....
hope this helps,
brian
It is short for "center line transfer" and it is drilling the fingers along a different center line than the thumb. It is not however done so you can lay your palm on the ball. This may be a benefit(if you see it that way), but the reason you really should use a CLT is because flat out...it's more comfortable to put your hand in a ball drilled this way than the standard "T" grip.
With a "T" grip the fingers point right at the thumb. We all know that your thumb is not in line with your fingers....so this makes no sense. By drilling the fingers along a different center line...one that points away from your thumb...you allow the fingers to go in the ball and have the thumb just drop into the thumb hole. Just as the bone structure of your hand is designed.
Keep in mind. This is NOT an offset thumb hole!!! Some people may refer to it as one. But it is not. An offset would require the thumb to move and then the spans would change. With a CLT, the spans remain the same and it's the center lines that the pitches are drilled off of that change.
Confusing...yes. But worth it when done properly.
Coach
If you lay your hand across the ball with the thumb in the thumb hole, your fingers will point in a direction away from your thumb. Trace a line inside of your fingers. Draw this line so that it extends down past the thumb hole. If you're right handed, this will be to the right of the thumb hole. This is the new center line for the fingers. You will drill the finger pitches along this new line.
With this method, you now have two different center lines. One for the thumb and one for the fingers.
I think I know the answer to this.
The first time you do it you drill the thumb first.
Then you lay hand on ball and draw the line between fingers that offset from the thumb. As Brian says to the left for lefties, to the right for righties.
One now measure span in typical t grip way. Next step now one orients the ball to the line you just drew. The CLT line now pitches are entered and the fingers are drilled. After you record in your records you can drill fingers first if you want.
I now find at this point that the thumb pitch oriented to the Tgrip line is fine.
However the pitches I've now put in the ball have a dramatically different feel than same pitches entered on the T grip line.
Because of my close to 20 degree CLT line offset my middle finger if drilled at a 0 degree forward/reverse pitch is now forward in relation to the old T grip measurements. My ring finger ends up if entered using the CLT line at 0 as slightly reverse when measured against the Tgrip standard.
I end up with a CLT grip tracking a little lower and with slightly heavier roll and fewer revs. I also end up tweaking pitches usually moving the middle finger slightly reverse and ring slightly forward. Then I end up with a similar feel as the Tgrip(as far as both fingers hitting fairly equally instead of the feeling that the CLT grip gives of middle finger hitting a lot harder).
But I gain the comfort of the CLT grip.(edited from T grip placed here accidently in original post).
MOst people think CLT is a lot of extra effort unless you have an offset of 15 degrees or more for the line between your fingers vs standard Tgrip line.
REgards,
Luckyleftyring
I wouldn't, but Brian Omara might.
What we are saying instead is that the CLT line give the ball driller a method to place the pitches in a line with the pull of the fingers. (Which for most people is to the side of the thumb along the center line transfer line CLT) not straight to the center of the thumb as in the standard Tgrip.
Spans are still drawn to the Tgrip. As is the Thumb pitch drilled in relation to the Tgrip.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Angstfilled
Posted: 1/31/2003 11:43 PM
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Lucky--
Where did you get that book, and are there any pics online that might be able to illistrate it a little better? I tried it today on a house ball, and it felt ok, but the guy that got me kicked out of my pro shop job by buying the shop from the center bashed it, saying that I could have just taken my finger pitches based off the regular T grip, and applied them like that, as opposed to doing the CLT.
So is that confusing yet?
--------------------
Jer Migonis
Email: Angstfilled@angelfire.com
LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/1/2003 0:02 AM
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What book. There is no book on CLT, just I read Brian Omara's posts.
On this site there has been a lot of disagreement regarding whether CLT is just a set of different pitches.
Between Brian and TGod?
Brian says no, Tgod says yes.
I say I don't know.
I am not a raving fan of CLT, but I will admit that I like the concept of having pitches drilled in relation to the pull of my fingers.
I believe that the Collier grip(thumb offset off of the Tgrip for lefties to the right for righties to the left) is a variation of this. In that when one does a Collier grip when one drills the thumb offset now the finger line points to the edge of the thumb hole or completely off of it. This now ends up with one drilling pitches around a Tgrip line which is now actually a CLT line as it points off of the thumb. Now ones pitches are oriented to a line offset from the thumb.
However, now one must now drill the thumb pitches slightly different to get the same feel as the standard T grip thumb now. This is because line now points up towards the middle finger and pitches will be oriented to that instead of center of two fingers.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Amigo2
Posted: 2/1/2003 3:27 AM
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I have all of my equipment drilled by the CLT method except for one ball I purchased in Billings last year. I asked Storm's driller what he thought of CLT. He seemed to know what he was talking about and said that he could do the same thing by changing pitches. I had him drill one for me and he did a good job. But,,,,, It is not the same!
By changeing pitches only it's definitley a different feel. The CLT seems to fit my hand so much better, the ball just lays in my hand. By changing pitches only, I feel the fingers with more lateral left and it feels unatural. I have followed both sides of the argument and listened to opinions of different pro shop operators. My experience in the last 12 months has been that I have had better results with CLT. I do not argue with those that believe there is nothing to CLT, I just continue using what works for me!
Amigo
After drilling a CLT grip, measure the finger pitches using the centerline you drilled your thumb on, instead of the centerline used to drill the fingers. Now you can use the new finger pitches to drill your next ball using the normal T-grip. =:^D LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/2/2003 6:02 AM
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TGod I agree in a way.
Trigonometry tells us that in the CLT we will have slightly less lateral than the Tgip version in both fingers. Also that we will end up with forward on the middle finger and slight reverse on the ring.
This will assume that we enter in a balanced lateral spread of fingers.
Something like 3/8 left and 3/8 right. Also it assumes one enters 0 for forward reverse pitch on the fingers.
However I don't know what it is but it DOES feel different when entered in along the CLT line. Something about orienting pitches along the line of pull of the fingers.
Now, it is interesting I just went to a Mo Pinel Del Warren seminar.
Mo entered my pitches in forward 1/2 on my middle finger and 1/4 on my ring.
I asked him if this was CLT, he said no but this is what I now do.
Implying that his type of pitch change mimicked clt.
Note one will always end up with more forward in the middle finger than the ring if one does CLT as long as the lateral of the middle finger is greater than 0.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS This extra forward of the middle always leads to more tilt and turn for the bowler. A slightly lower track. Again I seem to lose a rev with CLT and become slightly a lower track player. I had some big series with it. Yet I'm now drilling Tgrip. If I want to replicate CLT I enter more forward in to the middle finger and a little less forward in my ring. I also place my oval finger inserts facing down my CLT line. It does not feel quite as good as CLT, but I have a slight bit of extra revs.
Angstfilled
Posted: 2/2/2003 12:00 PM
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Yeah, when I drilled it, I usually have 1/4 reverse on my fingers, but with the CLT, it went 1/8 3/8. I wonder what would happen if I pulled the ring finger back to 1/4, and just did it t grip style.
--------------------
Jer Migonis
Email: Angstfilled@angelfire.com
Brian Omara
Posted: 2/2/2003 10:07 PM
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Well, I waited a while because I didn't want this to turn ugly like in the past. Some of you know what I'm talking about. It doesn't look like it will, so here goes.
I still believe that a CLT in NOT just a pitch change. I have done much experimenting with my stuff as well as others and have found that the CLT grip sits in the hand much more comfortably that a "T" grip with different pitches. You can remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip and the two balls will not feel the same in your hand. If anyone finds this to be untrue and you can drill a "T" grip with CLT pitches then I say "go for it".
But then again, why not just use the CLT in the first place?
If your ball driller can measure you for a CLT, have it come out good so it's very comfortable in your hand, and then take the time to remeasure pitches....then why not just have them drill the CLT every time? Seems to me this would only make sense. And save some time.
--------------------
"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
pchee2
Posted: 2/2/2003 11:18 PM
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Myself, I prefer to have my fingers pitched into a BLT.
--------------------
pchee2<~~~strokin the ball with cranker revs and spraying the lanes for an average of a buck 62. This guy is full of STUFF!
LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/3/2003 5:46 AM
________________________________________
Hey,
Brian,
I agree with you. The CLT feels different than entering the pitches measured in relation to the Tgrip.
The only reason I don't use the CLT is that I seen to have lost a rev and I don't want to lose any of my 14 to 15.
When I go to the Tgrip I seem to pick that rev back up.
The feel of the CLT is real good and my hand looks good on the ball.
But I seem to be able to get a little more watusi on the ball standard.
Anyone else ever mention this.
REgards,
Luckylefty PS I also have become very aware of pointing my oval finger inserts down my CLT even when I drill the T grip. This has helped with the comfort of my grip quite a bit and eliminated a lot of the torqued look at the end of my fingers with the standard Tgrip and my ovals pointed to the thumb.
Brian Omara
Posted: 2/3/2003 7:40 AM
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Lucky,
I haven't really found a decrease in revs by using a CLT. If anyhting, you should be able to create more side roll with it. Which in turn will store more energy and then more backend...with less effort. But, to each his own. If you or anyone else is having success with what you do...then I say "do it".
Pchee...maybe if you take your fingers out of that BLT, you might get your average up to 165.
--------------------
"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
livespive
Posted: 2/3/2003 8:15 AM
________________________________________
Just as I have done with Lucky's advice I will have to get a ball punched out to try it. I had all of my balls Done with my new span calculated via bill taylor method and they feel good. The side rool that Brian mentioned intrest me so I will have to give CLT a shot.
Right now I need to go finish my BLT, all of pchee2's talk has made me hungry
LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/3/2003 10:57 AM
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Of course I have not had CLT drilled by Brian Omara!
Last year we almost connected and this year maybe we will.
REgards,
Luckylefty
livespive
Posted: 2/3/2003 11:19 AM
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Yeah I got to talking with Brian myself one about where he was located. I might have to make my way over there to him for a weekend, and see what we can do. quagmire
Posted: 2/6/2003 12:29 PM
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To back up what Brian originally said CLT's allow most people a more comfortable grip which should allow the player to not squeeze as much and therefore reproduce shots better.It also helps with swelling because there is not as much strain on your hand.
Remember everyones hands are different as far as flexibility and bone structure. An easy way to figure out what might be best for you is : take one of your own balls put your thumb in only, lay your outstretched hand on the ball and see if your fingers lay close to the holes that already exist. Most of you will find for right handers that your hand feels alot better with your fingers about 1/2" to 1" to the right of your existing finger holes. If you also notice that when you move your fingers to the right your elbow and forearm start to come closer to your body. (remember this doesnt work for everyone). Remeber that naturally your thumb is not positioned directly under your fingers and when you have a tgrip you are forcing your thumb to be under your fingers, the more you move your thumb under your fingers the more the rest of your arm is affected (relax your hand palm up and touch your thumb to your pinky(dont bring your pinky to your thumb try to bring thumb over to pinky), if you have alot of flexibility it will be easier if you dont you will notice your wrist and forearm will rotate to try and accomplish this task) those with plenty of flexibility can get away with with most types of drills, those without should really try a CLT or offset thumb. Buba
Posted: 2/6/2003 9:36 PM
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I have some questions"
1. My thumb lacks about 1 inch of being able to touch my pinkie and it hurts right up thru the top of my thumb when I try to touch my pinkie. So are you saying that the CLT is (will work) for me? And about how much right of the finger holes should my fingers go when trying to locate for new holes? And does the span now change as well as finger pitches? I am really interested in this as I have a lot of problem keeping my elbow in. Didn't used to have this much problem, but now that I've gotten older and stiffer, I do.
2. What exactly is an off-set thumb?
Buba
Posted: 2/6/2003 10:24 PM
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Another question on the CLT grip. LuckyLefty, you mentioned the Collier grip. I know what the Collier grip is although I'm not quote sure how far left to move the thumb for a right hander. (please don't tell me to see my pro shop operator as he is new to ball drilling and I am lucky if he even gets the ball laid out right) Are you saying that the Collier grip is the same or almost the same as the CLT grip? LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/7/2003 5:22 AM
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Brick,
Some interesting questions.
Offset grip, collier grip are the same thing in my mind.
The thumb is offset at least in the collier grip under the ring finger.
How much I don't know?
Bill Taylor says this grip doesn't exist, you are just reorienting a triangle.
I sort of disagree, if one orients the finger pitches to the side of the center of the thumb or down the line which one used to offset the thumb, instead of the traditional T grip line,(to the center of the thumb).
This offsetting of these finger pitches to a line offset from the thumb makes this grip similar to the CLT grip which offset pitches off the thumb(how much, how much do your fingers offset from your thumb). Draw a line between them when in ball and you will see.
The difference and I've drilled both between the CLT and the Collier is that both orient the finger pitches off the center of the thumbhole. The CLT then orients the Thumb pitches to the standard Tgrip line. I oriented the thumb pitches for the Collier offset to the line to the ring finger.
Ps The collier(or offset under ring finger) felt pretty good to me but with this setup I felt I needed to adjust my thumb pitches a little from my standard.
Now regarding your question on elbow position during the swing. I am not sure that problem relates to offset thumb etc.
Lately and in my own case besides getting the ball too far away from your slide leg, I believe a possible cause of this problem is too little lateral pitch under palm for your thumb.
In golf we have a saying "staying under". In golf one of the number one causes of not being able to stay under is too weak of a left hand grip. This causes the golfer to have the right elbow fly over the line to try to square up the club.
So it is in bowling. Too little lateral thumb under palm pitch(right for a righty, left for a lefty)to start rotating the elbow well before release to apply the necessary turn to the ball enough to return it to the pocket. The right amount of lateral pitch for your body and anatomy makes it much easier to keep the elbow behind or even inside the ball.
I've detailed before how to find these pitches somewhere in this forum but a quick refresh.
Grab a cylinder, coke bottle whatever, naturally.
Where does your thumb point?
To your indes finger = 1/8 left lateral pitch for a righty.
Between index and middle = 0 pitch
Middle finger = 1/8 right lateral pitch
between middle and ring 1/4 right lateral pitch
ring finger 3/8 right lateral pitch.
For years I have been using 1/16 left lateral(I'm lefty) and 1/8 lateral.
After doing this test I believe that I should be using 1/4 to 3/8 lateral.
I've just started trying it. At first I was spinning and topping.
Probably because I was used to getting my elbow out a little.
As I get more used to it I'm finding my elbow is getting tighter and tighter.
I have a friend that tests very similarly to me in the coke test above.
We almost point to our ring finger.
He has been trying 3/8" under palm lateral.
At first he struggled. Last week 767! During this set I had noticed how tight his elbow had looked. Note he has been using 1/8 lateral out!!!!!
This is the state of drilling today. Let's try what this guy over there is using even if it doesn't fit your hand! It's the latest trend!
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS the trend for bowlers right now is to follow some of the pros who are going to near 0 lateral pitch. This reminds me of the trend in golf when left hand grips weakened for the pros and all the amateurs tried it. Of course the amateurs were already slicing it and it just made their slicing worse! So it is in bowling, if one blindly follows a trend because it's popular and their anatomy doesn't match up. Bad results will follow.
PPS I have a pro friend who recently went from 1/8 under to 1/8 lateral out.
He said see one can use anything! However in contrast to me he tests out at 0 with the coke bottle test above. Naturally a range of acceptable positions can work for him around 0. I on the other hand test out to about 5/16 lateral under palm. My variations are around that center point. Probaly 3/8 lateral under has the same feel and affect on my elbow as does 1/16 under for him!
Edited on 2/7/2003 5:50 AM
Edited on 2/7/2003 5:54 AM
OmegaBowler
Posted: 2/10/2003 4:02 PM
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I have just drilled up a new ball with a CLT and Converted a another.
A few things I have noticed.
The drilling seams to make a bigger impact without the inserts. 1 with, 1 without. That could be just me.
The ball rests more in the palm of the hand. By my informal tests: I set my hand in the ball ( RH) then take my left index finger and slide it between my palm and ball as far as I can without disrupting my fit. I mark my palm and then try the new fit. The CLT lets 1 inch more of the ball set on my hand. for me that meant that about 25% percent of my hand touched the ball. now with the CLT almost 50% of my hand touched the ball.
I'm not sure of all my pitches yet and will have to iron them out over time. I like my old fit just fine and have bowled well with it. It took serval drillings to get it right. The CLT is now my drilling of choice. Only time will tell if there are any long term strains or such.
I have said before that a 15/16# ball on the end of your fingers is not natural. I just try and make it as comfortable as possible and The CLT Is number 1 in making that happen
Number 2 is Magic Carpet Tape.
My game has settled down and my avg is a steady at 190. I will report back if these new changes add or subtract to my game in a big manner. Right now my cross lane spares are killing me. 10 pins are about 90%, 7 pin side about 40%. right there is my 200 avg. But that is a completely different problem.
Sorry for the long rambling.
capa
Posted: 2/11/2003 10:13 AM
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Hmmm, that sounds like a very interesting technique - and maybe a solution for my grip problems
But for someone who isn't that knowledgeable when it comes to drill patterns this sounds very difficult...
My ball driller has no experience with CLT so I'll have to learn it here and tell him what to do
I have one photo of one of my balls after it was drilled here.
(By the way: How can we include images directly in the post like in other forums?)
So this is the conventional T-grip, right?
In this case it has zero pitch in both fingerholes.
Will the fingerholes be at the same places when you use CLT or do the shift left or right?
quote:
________________________________________
If you lay your hand across the ball with the thumb in the thumb hole...
________________________________________
^^^ Brian Omara ^^^
Where exactly do you place the fingers? Directly over their holes?
LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/11/2003 2:34 PM
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Capa,
From your previous posts I really think the lateral thumb pitch under palm may
be a big part of your solution.
This is a interesting technique and can be a great help to many people. But However, your thumb problem sounds serious.
One places fingers over where the finger holes will be drilled in the current T grip.
One draws a line down the center of middle and ring finger.
The ball is reoriented to this line in the jig and then the standard finger pitches are drilled whatever they are. The same lateral and same forward reverse are used at least at first.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS IF it is me I try one change at a time. First thumb pitch, then one should try CLT. Or just CLT and if this not the solution(I don't think it is) then thumb pitch.
T
livespive
Posted: 2/11/2003 4:42 PM
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quote:
________________________________________
One places fingers over where the finger holes will be drilled in the current T grip.
One draws a line down the center of middle and ring finger.
The ball is reoriented to this line in the jig and then the standard finger pitches are drilled whatever they are. The same lateral and same forward reverse are used at least at first.
________________________________________
Now,
Are you saying that the line that has just been drawn is the line where you would place your thumbhole? Then put your thumb in the ball and allow the fingers to relax and draw another line and then lay out the finger holes on the new line?
Also If we use a combination and use everything that Bill Taylor say to establis the thumb location and pitch, is it possible to then lay the thumb in and layout a cly from the Taylor thumb position.
It might sound like I am rambling, but I am going to the proshop tomorrow to give this a whirl, so I am just clearing a few things up.
T[/quote]
Brian Omara
Posted: 2/11/2003 9:00 PM
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Capa...just as Lucky has said. After placing your thumb in the thumb hole. Lay your fingers across the ball...in the case of a ball that's already got holes...over the existing holes. You'll notice the fingers do not point straight down towards the thumb. The line that is formed, which should point to the right of the thumb(being right handed) is the new center line that you would drill the finger pitches off of. The pitches you would use would be whatever you normally would. There's no need to make any adustments on fingers pitches when using a CLT. Unless you come up with something that feels better.
The biggest change that I've noticed when using a CLT is in the oval angle of the thumb. If drilling a round thumb hole, no change needed. When drilling an oval thumb hole, the angle is different than with the "T" grip. Just one more thing to confuse and think about.
--------------------
"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
capa
Posted: 2/12/2003 9:44 AM
________________________________________
Thanks for all your helpful answers
This is a real great place here.
LuckyLefty: But how much side pitch should I try? 1/8?
At this time all my balls have zero pitch in the finger holes and if I change
them this might solve another miscomfort that I have: When I grip the bowling
ball my fingernails get squeezed against the rubber of the finger inserts. That
does not feel so comfortable. If I got the terms right I would need reverse
pitch in the fingerholes, right?
How much pitch once again is trial and error?
If you change fingerpitches do you have to adjust the span as well?
I'm sure this has been asked a thousand times before but since this board is
lacking a search function (or at least I haven't found it yet) I'll ask it again:
How do you find out the correct span size?
I must add that I have a so called double-jointed or flexible thumb - absolutely
novelty for my ball driller and I have a callous at the base of my thumb caused
by the edge of the thumbhole (which is already bevelled but to no avail).
Or is this too far off-topic and I'd better spawn a new thread for that question?
LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/12/2003 11:21 AM
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Coke bottle test which I've described earlier in this post and how to interpret the results determines lateral pitch.
1/8 out if thumb points at index finger
0 if pointing between index and middle
1/8 lateral under(right for righties) if at middle finger
1/4 between middle and ring
3/8 if thumb points at ring finger (3/8 right for righties)
Span should already be dialed in with your driller.
How I find span is about 5/16 short of last joint for both fingers when fingers stretched quite a bit.
Callus at top base of thumb is always bad. Indicates too long a span or inadequate front bevel in thumb.
Go to drilling forum here on this site all these areas have been covered recently(on the first page).
Lateral thumb pitch, span, and bevel.
REgards,
Luckylefty
I
Billson
Posted: 2/16/2003 6:34 AM
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Brian O,
quote:
________________________________________
I still believe that a CLT in NOT just a pitch change. I have done much experimenting with my stuff as well as others and have found that the CLT grip sits in the hand much more comfortably that a "T" grip with different pitches. You can remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip and the two balls will not feel the same in your hand.
________________________________________
Can you elaborate more on your statement above because I can't quite imagine it. Do you mean to tell us that for every new ball you want to have drilled using CLT, you have to take new measurements every time because if you compare both drillings afterwards by using the standard "T" grip method, the measurements will be different?
On the other hand, if you remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip, since both balls have exactly identical measurements, how can the two balls not feel the same in your hand? I can't see where the difference your talking about lies? What am I missing here?
I'm no ball driller but your statement doesn't seem to make sense to me.
Regards,
Billson
Brian Omara
Posted: 2/17/2003 5:21 PM
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Billson
This has been covered many times before.
First...you don't have to take new measurements with each new ball. As long as you know what your CLT is, your ball driller should be able to duplicate it with every ball. The spans, pitches and hole sizes are all the same as with a "T" grip. The only difference would be the line the finger pitches are drilled off of and the angle of the oval in the thumb...if one is used.
The reason the CLT and the "T" do not feel the same by remeasuring the pitches from a CLT onto the "T" is because the pitches are drilled off of two different lines. When the thumb is drilled off center line "A" (we'll say), you draw a new center line("B"), which if right handed, is to the right of the first(thumb) center line and extending up. If you were to lay your hand across the ball with your thumb in the thumb hole, your fingers would follow this line("B") and it would point up your arm....not at the thumb like in a "T" grip. Because of these two different center lines, the ball sits in your hand differently and you get a different feel than you would with these same pitches in a "T" grip.
You can ask anyone who's tried this. They will tell you that the CLT sits in the hand and feels different than the "T" grip. No matter what pitches you use.
Hope this makes a little more sense now.
--------------------
"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
Billson
Posted: 2/17/2003 6:55 PM
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Brian O,
I think you missed my point. I understand how a CLT is measured and drilled. It's your statement "you can remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip and the two balls will not feel the same in your hand" that confuses me. Since both balls have exactly identical measurements, how can the two balls not feel the same in your hand?
I'm not trying to start an arguement here. It's just that I'm planning to give CLT a try but I don't know how to go about it. After I have determined the center line B and have pitched the holes based on this, how do I make a record of a layout with two centerlines if I can't just remeasure the pitches to drill on a new ball? I'm not too sure how to get my point through so please bear with me if you still can't understand what I'm trying to say.
Regards,
Billson
LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/17/2003 9:32 PM
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Billson,
You have just figured out how to do CLT the same everytime.
One draws there CLT between the middle and ring finger.
One measures the amount of offset from thumb in inches or degrees.
It doesn't matter which. One knows what pitch one just entered in to ball.
To drill a new ball
Drill thumb.
Draw line on determined CLT line(inches or angle)
Reorrient ball to that line.
Enter T grip pitches or previous CLT pithces.
Easy.
Now it sounds like you want to make it hard on yourself and enter CLT pithces once and then measure them in Relation to Tgrip line and enter them always using Tgrip. You can do that but why make it difficult?
REgards,
Luckylefty
I know I haven't answered your question on why Tgrip entry of measured CLT pithces pitches doesn't feel the same. I haven't tested and don't know the answer.
Brian Omara
Posted: 2/18/2003 4:50 PM
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Billson,
Lucky pretty much said it all. I do understand what you are trying to say and I think maybe you are making it a bit more difficult than it is. Once you have your CLT measurements, just use these everytime you drill a new ball. You never need to use a "T" grip again. You can use your "T" grip pitches, they'll just be drilled off the new center line.
Again, as far as the feel goes, refer to my statement about how the ball sits in your hand. Because the pitches are drilled off a different center line, the ball sits in your hand differently and gives a different feel than the same pitches drilled pointing to your thumb like in a "T" grip. With the CLT, there's no twisting of the hand to get the thumb to fall into the thumb hole.
I hope this helps and I realize you're not trying to start an argument like some people on these boards.
--------------------
"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
WAYouthBowler
Posted: 2/18/2003 5:20 PM
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Well I printed out these pages a few days ago and brought them to my driller. I explained to him what exactly goes on in drilling up a CLT ball, and we tried it out.
The ball felt great when it sat on my hand, my driller held it in his own just to see what it was like and stated that it felt "really good".
Anyways, took the ball down and starting throwing it, and proceeded to constantly lose the ball too early at release and had no consistency with my rotation.
So I've come to the conclusion that clt would work if I refined my thumb pitches and span, but I think I'll stay with what I got for the time being.
Thanks for all the interesting info guys, very cool stuff.
Billson
Posted: 2/20/2003 2:57 AM
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Thanks for the replies guys but I think only Luckylefty understood what I was trying to say.
Lucky,
Your last statement is the question I've been asking about all along but after all the replies, I still don't have the answer. Never mind coz we've now ended up going around in circles.
quote:
________________________________________
Now it sounds like you want to make it hard on yourself and enter CLT pitches once and then measure them in Relation to Tgrip line and enter them always using Tgrip. You can do that but why make it difficult?
________________________________________
I'm thinking doing it this way will make it easier for the pro shop to understand what I want him to do since it is what he is used to doing.
Brian,
This is your statement that I wanted you to clarify but it seems we keep getting off track.
quote:
________________________________________
You can remeasure the pitches after using a CLT and drill those pitches on a standard "T" grip and the two balls will not feel the same in your hand.
________________________________________
I just wanted you to clarify why they don't feel the same since technically they have identical measurements or did you just misstate what you were trying to say?
Regards,
Billson
OLI
Posted: 2/20/2003 5:07 AM
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Your centerline is different with a CLT tranfer. Yes, the pitches would it will not feel the same to your hand. BT
Posted: 2/20/2003 7:29 AM
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Phew! You guys are making me dizzy! Although I eat up all of this technical info it seems that there are a lot of variables involved depending on ones anatomy. Since i am what I consider somewhat of a "freak of nature" this CLT drilling might just be the hot ticket for me. When I grab a coke can my thumb points to the INDEX finger! It's VERY difficult to point thumb to pinky. Anyway, I need to absorb all of this for awhile.. In the mean time I will try to test Capa's question regarding entering images into the reply directly. I have been wanting to try this anyway so here goes!
<pre id=code><font face=courier size=2 id=code><img src="http://www.cre8ive.de/other/t-grip.jpg"> [/code]
IF this works there should be Capa's ball picture above...
<img src="http://www.cre8ive.de/other/t-grip.jpg">
Sorry for all the experimenting. This obviously isnt allowed. I viewed the HTML and the < and > are removed. The above line is changed to :
"<img src="http://www.cre8ive.de/other/t-grip.jpg">"
Edited on 2/20/2003 7:54 AM
Edited on 2/20/2003 8:03 AM
BT
Posted: 2/20/2003 8:34 AM
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ok, after searching the net for clt I discovered there isnt much there. Did however find another term I didnt understand as quoted below from a website who sells drilling machines.
"Grips: Because of the versatility of the ovalmatic machine you can drill almost any grip you want without taking the ball out, weather it's an offset grip, thumb inline, CLT (centerline transposition), or even the new max-y grip"
What is a "max-y grip"?
(from
http://www.precisionbowlingproducts.com/faq.html)
PolishHammer
Posted: 2/20/2003 2:17 PM
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quote:
________________________________________
ok, after searching the net for clt I discovered there isnt much there. Did however find another term I didnt understand as quoted below from a website who sells drilling machines.
"Grips: Because of the versatility of the ovalmatic machine you can drill almost any grip you want without taking the ball out, weather it's an offset grip, thumb inline, CLT (centerline transposition), or even the new max-y grip"
What is a "max-y grip"?
(from
http://www.precisionbowlingproducts.com/faq.html)
________________________________________
I got a ball drilled with the "max y grip" and then had my pro shop operator try to copy it. They asked for weird measurements of the width of my fingers. The only thing that looked different from my original grip was that the finger insert were rotated counter clockwise about 30 degrees. My pro shop operator copied the pitches and the gave me an offset thumb and it feels comfortable and allows more of my palm to contact the ball, but I'm not sure if its all that revolutionary. I would love to know more about it as well.
Brian Omara
Posted: 2/20/2003 2:23 PM
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Billson...I don't know how many ways to say it or how many times. This is the quote I wrote that answers your question as to why the "T" grip and the CLT do not feel the same even though you use the same pitches.
quote:
________________________________________
The reason the CLT and the "T" do not feel the same by remeasuring the pitches from a CLT onto the "T" is because the pitches are drilled off of two different lines. When the thumb is drilled off center line "A" (we'll say), you draw a new center line("B"), which if right handed, is to the right of the first(thumb) center line and extending up. If you were to lay your hand across the ball with your thumb in the thumb hole, your fingers would follow this line("B") and it would point up your arm....not at the thumb like in a "T" grip. Because of these two different center lines, the ball sits in your hand differently and you get a different feel than you would with these same pitches in a "T" grip.
________________________________________
You are trying to look at it from a simple "numbers" game. And it's not.. It's a feel thing. If you look at the numbers and see that the pitches and span all measure the same...you think "well, they must feel the same." They don't. And the reason they don't is stated above. I guess you would have to try it to see what I mean.
As far as your statement that it would be easier for your ball driller. I don't think it would. If you get a CLT and know the angle or amount of shift it is, then that should be the way to drill balls in the future. Just like a standard "T" grip, the CLT becomes the "norm" when you drill a ball. And like I and Lucky said earlier, if your ball driller can do a CLT, then there's no need to copy pitches and try to duplicate it on a "T grip. It's a waste of time and energy.
Please tell me if this helps at all. If not, then someone is missing the "understanding" boat here. I think I have answered your question and explained it best I could. If I haven't, could someone...Lucky...please help.
--------------------
"It's about smashing, crushing and generally humiliating the other guy!!!"
Nothing hits like a HAMMER
BT
Posted: 2/22/2003 8:20 AM
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Ok guys lets keep this alive since I don't think this is completely resolved yet. I am going to research this subject more. i am going to work with my ball driller and, try to get a clearer picture of what ALL is involved since I have a gut feeling that there are more variables involved (maybe). One thing that i think is a big factor and, not brought up much so far IS: Round thumb hole OR oval. IF you have a round thumb hole and, you insert the thumb in one of your balls as suggested by several here ,, it is possible to rotate your hand and fingers to ANY one of of 360 degree locations. So, this seems useless in determining where the "fingers rest naturally"! An oval thumb hole is another story. Depending on the number of degrees this is with relation to the fingers IS what determines where your fingers feel the best. Not saying I disagree with all of you, just making an observation. I also am thinking of talking to an X PBA pro (PBA hall of famer) who lives here and, see what his thoughts are on this subject. One thing that bothers me is there is NO info on the internet (that I could find) about the CLT, Collier, or Max-Y grips. This alone says something... maybe that it's a farce? Anyone found any info on the internet regarding this? Please share the address if so!
To Be continued......
It IS very interesting to me!
I have just drilled my EQuipment CLt. I like the feel much better.
It's easy( If my proshops does it right.)
1.mark the grip centerline on the ball
2.Drill a hole for your thumb. with pitched to befit you natural thumb etc..
3. place your thumb in the hole like you normal would for a t-grip. now lay your palm on the ball and relax your hand.
4. draw line between your fingers.
5 you have now repositioned the grip centerline for your fingers. drill proper finger pitches.
actually for a right handed person the range of degrees should be between 90 ( t-grip and 180(max) more like 135 +/- 20.
so the grip centerline based on the thumb becomes the Y axis and fingers are angled to it.
a normal T-Grip is all along the y axis +/- 10 deg. If you take your ball now and place your fingers in the ball. now place your thumb in the ball in slow motion. now observe the twisting of the palm and thumb base to fit it in the hole.
With clt there is far less twisting and bending. it's just more natural.
lay your hand on the table palm up ,like you have a softball in your hand. now look at the pad of your thumb and the pad of your fingers as if they are flat. no way does a line connect them at 90 deg(T-Grip).
so the pitches in your thumb and the pitches in your fingers are on different reference lines.
Does that help? sound right Brian?
BT
Posted: 2/22/2003 10:07 AM
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Omega,
Now, THIS makes some sense! It is EXACTLY what I have been experimenting with this morning! Drilling the thumb WITH the desired lateral and for/reverse pitch AND oval angle of the thumbhole IF using an oval thumb hole. These are the only questionable numbers now to me.
More info found on PBA.COM forums:
Titled "Offset thumbhole"
--------------------------------
Hi all,
Just wondering if any of you use an off set thumb hole or if your ball is drilled straight back from the fingers.
I talked to a guy who showed me his equipement and his were off set. He looked at my hand and demonstrated how my thumb will not line up with my fingers going straight back to my elbow.
This seems to make alot of sence to me. I have been having hand pain from cranking my thumb in just to get it in the ball.
Will an off set thumb help me release the ball better?
What are the pros and cons of an off set thumb?
Any answers are greatly appreciated,
Charles
------------------------------------------------
A reply to this:
I thought this would provoke some 'discussion'.....
I have argued this with people for years. I have diagrammed why it makes a difference, a REAL difference-- but there are many who cannot, or WILL not, see. They believe that 'offset' is impossible without screwing up the spans. It does not screw up the spans. It simply aligns the thumb-hole PITCHES properly with the rest of your hand. The difference may only be 10 degrees-- but if you don't think that makes a difference, put an oval thumb insert in your ball at an angle that's 10 degrees off where it should be! Unless your opposable thumb functions differently from all the ones I've seen-- and MOST of the thumbs I've worked with seemd to belong to hominids of some sort, or at least higher primates-- that difference makes ALL the difference. It enables the use of less ridiculous amounts of reverse and lateral pitches to get a clean, consistent release, which in turn promotes a more relaxed grip, a freer armswing, and everything that goes along with that.....just as Mr. Taylor and IBPSIA advocate.
The term "offset" is probably misleading and imprecise, for describing what is actually being done. But the CONCEPT is very, very real and true. And the EFFECTS are UNDENIABLY REAL.
Your Honor, the Defense rests
BT
Posted: 2/22/2003 10:21 AM
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quote:
________________________________________
Is that short for "center line transfer" by any chance? I've heard the term before, but didn't know what it was.
________________________________________
According to Ebonite's Glossary of terms:
Center line transposition (CLT) – Lateral shift of the center line, after drilling thumb first.
OmegaBowler
Posted: 2/22/2003 10:32 AM
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I no ball driller. Thta's for sure.
from previous posts I thought and offset thumb was different that a CLT.
I'm under this impression. the standard t-grip is used but when you make the grip centerline you draw a parallel line to the grip center(now used for finger layout) offset some number like 3/8" left( for RH) and adjust the thumb pitches but leave the thumb alone.
If this is so, then there would be a difference in fit.
so for offset thumb, a finger pitch would be 3/8 left would still be 3/8 left in relation to the thumb. In a clt the finger pitch could still be 3/8 but not in relation to the thumb. it would be in relation to the hand at the base of the finger. the relation ship of the finger pitch to the thumb would be rotated x number of degrees. 3/8 left would become more like 1/4 under and 1/16" left as related to the thumb.
In a CLT you set your fingers at what appears a angle to the thumb because of the pitches. your finger is still going in at the angle for 3/8 left. not under at 1/4". it really is a big difference. your thumb kind of fall into the hole.
as a Personal observation as I move around from a stroker to cranker styles. the CLT really benefits a stoker/tweener. My normal release has little side roll. now I can get a lot more with out changing my axis tilt.
I would like to try a mix of Offset thumb and CLT. Get the CLT measurements then off set the thumb 1/4" or so from the first CLT centerline.
Edited on 2/22/2003 10:40 AM
LuckyLefty
Posted: 2/22/2003 12:32 PM
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Omega- you got it!
You have defined what happens when one uses the same pitches from the Tgrip to what now happens when you drill these same pitches into the ball with the ball oriented to the fingers line or CLT.
If a person(righty) is 3/8 left middle and 0 forward reverse middle in a T grip and then turns and enters those pitches in to a 1 inch off the center of grip finger line, or 20degree CLT, he is now like 5/16 left and 1/8 forward in the middle finger in relation to the Tgrip line.
If this same righty is 3/8 right ring and 0 forward reverse in a Tgrip and these pitches are then entered along the CLT line. These pitches will now read if measured in relation to the Tgrip about 5/16 right and 1/8 reverse.
What this does is tend to increase axis tilt and turn. When I do CLT I find my track lowers about an inch and that my PAP gets closer to my grip center.
Say I have a 5 1/4 inch pap with Tgrip. Then I will have like a 4 1/2 inch PAP everything the same with CLT.
Of course if I enter forward in my middle finger and reverse in my ring I will also experience the same effect. Of course I will not have my pithces oriented to the pull of my fingers and the comfort that CLT offers but I will have the same effect except for comfort level.
I find that in all reality the CLT is really a version of Thumb offset.
In other words the thumb really is offset under the middle finger in relation to the CLt line.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Lately guys know I'm drilling balls at the little proshop in the back at home.
Having a lot of fun with it.
Top bowlers are coming up all the time with thumb problems and saying you know I go here but I've got this etc.
The number one thing I'm seeing from top bowlers are bruises or callouses under the base of the thumb and pain in this area!
Dangerous!
It appears the trends are to use less and less reverse pitch in the thumb or even to go forward. All with no understanding of how these pitches are suppossed to have some relationship to span.
Many people just want 0 forward/reverse pitch or maybe forward when maybe that is appropriate for their hand or maybe it isn't.
To compound the problem many are now saying I don't like Bevel, Norm Duke doesn't use bevel.
One top bowler around here tried 0 forward reverse for his shorter span and loved it. He loved it so much that he then went to 1/4 inch forward using a custom thumb. He now has a big bruise under his thumb, slight nerve damage, wears a patch there and may have to take a couple of weeks off.
Here are the basic concepts.
Bill Taylor created the following table. It is a great starting point.
It is based on 63 degrees of angle between the top of finger holes to thumb line and the thumb hole forward reverse angle.
Each increase of 1/8 inch of span increases reverse pitch 1/16, and each decrease of 1/8 inch of span decreases reverse pitch 1/16 of an inch.
For reference the table starts at 4 1/4 = 0 forward reverse pitch.
4 inch span = 1/8 forward pitch
4 1/4 span = 0 pitch
4 3/8 = 1/16 reverse
4 1/2= 1/8 reverse
4 5/8 = 3/16 reverse
4 3/4 = 1/4 reverse
4 7/8 = 5/16 reverse
5 = 3/8 reverse
People with dry thumbs, short thumbs (shorter than 2 1/4), and dropping problems should probably go 1/8 forward from the tables.
People with wet thumbs, long thumbs (longer than 2 1/2), and hanging problems not caused by bevel usually should add 1/8 reverse to the tables.
For example I should use about 3/16 reverse at 4 11/16 but I tend to like 1/16 to 1/32 reverse only due to a shorter but very dry thumb that has no problem releasing fast!
Recently being aware of lots of thumb damage in my area I went to 0 with a custom thumb and did not increase the front thumb bevel. One game and already I started to develop a little ping under the thumb. Instantly I jumped on it and applied a light touch of extra front bevel to the front surface(ring finger test) and problem fixed.
One decreases Pitch every 16th of an inch while keeping the span the same it is like making the span 1/8 of an inch longer in feel. Your thumb has to stretch and make it around the lip of the thumb. THis point if left at the same sharpness as it was for a workable span pitch setup will be essentially pointier if left with the same bevel. Note you've decreased your thumb angle to less than 63degrees. Decrease reverse pitch, leave span the same = increase front bevel for safety.
Don't damage YOUR thumb, don't blindly go forward and damage those important nerves in the base of your thumb. Don't copy a PBA or local star they may have a much more relaxed span in relation to their hand than you do.
Pitch should not be viewed in a vacumm. It should be viewed in the context of your span, your tendancy with the ball, and bevel should not be copied either.
Your hand may have the need for lots of bevel or very little based on the amount of webbing you have between your index finger and thumb.
More web = exposed nerves = more bevel. Less web = nerves in hand not web area = less bevel.
Protect that gifted hand of yours.
Don't follow drilling trends blindly without knowing your hand and your proper span!
REgards,
Luckylefty
All assumptions given regarding these statements made earlier
use approx 0 forward reverse pitch on the finger(less than 1/4 variance either way).
I'm aware of this variant of extreme forwards coupled with forward pitch thumbs used sometimes on the tours.
Note that each 3/8 of finger reverse has the feel of shortening the span at least 1/16.
An inch is about the effect of shortening the span 3/16 of an inch at least.
least.
I've noted that by leaving my spans the same and going 1/4 inch forward I can recapture the feeling of a stretched span(which I like) without the wear and tear on my thumb.
Note not all people need bevel, I've pointed out in my post on this drilling section of the forum titled bevling tips from Mo Pinel, (last post out there by me) that some people actually have no web between their thumb and index finger and need virtually nothing. They are as rare as people with 20/5 vision in the general population.
Then there are people like me with web both on the thumb and also towards the index finger, I need bevel on the top of the thumb hole and in to the ball.
Please read that post if this topic interests you there may be some Ideas that may help interested bowlers apply something to their own unique hand.
Around here many of the bowlers looking at Norm Duke's ball on TV or just reading BTM are introducing ideas that can be dangerous. Then the ball driller let's them then say I don't want any bevel Joe 800anaire doesn't use any.
I'm not blaming the ball drillers, but they will not lose customers over this.
Why would you.
So all of a sudden I'm getting the poor the tired the injured thumbs.
All are instantly fixable and the ball is still hanging on their hands and then coming off like butter!
Adjustments of pitch more dramatic than 1/8 off of the tables should be carefully thought out and evaluated by the bowler. More Forward extra bevel often needed.
Less forward are you squeezing??? Or do you just have a real wet thumb?
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS Hope this prevents at least one bowler from getting seriously hurt!
PPS again all comments on span should again be considered never in a vacumm.
A 1/2 inch reverse is a proper amount of reverse for a long or wet thumb in a 5 inch span. In a 6 inch span it is too forward.
Ubrey,
I've just reviewed your post again a little more thoroughly.
I see that you use a 4 1/2 inch span. 1/4 forward and 3/4 to 1inch reverse.
Out of interest I would guess that your normal full fingertip span originally was near 4 3/4 when you used 0 reverse/forward in your fingers.
My guess is that most people of average finger length that we put there last joint about 5/16 of an inch over the lip of their finger holes to allow them to have 0 forward reverse pitch in the fingers. Each 3/8 of inch reverse in the fingers gives the feeling of shortening the span at least 1/16 of an inch per Bill Taylor as I stated above. I believe that you have an adjusted span that is more like 4 1/4(the feeling of 4 1/2 with reverse of near 1 inch being similar to the feeling of 4 1/4 to 4 1/8 with 0 forward reverse finger pitch).
I'm going to guess that your last joint is only over the lip of your finger holes by about 1/8 of an inch.
According to the tables the thumb forward reverse of 0 or maybe 1/16 for what I canll your synthetic span(what it would be if you used 0 finger forward reverse). Minus a factor of 1/8 if you had a fast thumb puts you right in your current territory of 1/4 forward.
Are my guesses correct.
What was your original span before you started going way forward. 4 3/4?
How far is your last joint over the lips of your fingerholes with the amount of reverse you know have?
Do you have much of a web between your thumb and index finger?
I'm interested in these please get back to us.
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS I'm have a ball at home I just use to try different drilling ideas.
Tonight or tomorrow I'm going to add a 3/8 forward hole for my thumb. I'm sure that this is going to shorten the length that my last joint will comfortably stretch to on the ball. I want to measure that amount and see if jibes with my above calculations. My guess is exactly 1/4 of an inch which could be accomodated mostly by the finger pitch adjustment you made.
I'll get back on my findings.
PPPS Ubrey what were you trying to accomplish with this different grip that the more conventional grip did not accomplish?
I did go and drill a ball with 3/8 forward and 3/8 reverse.
I noted that When I stretched my fingers in the 3/8 reverse version my span to my last joint was 5 1/4 and 5 1/4.
When I placed my thumb in the 3/8 forward version I found that my fingers only stretch to 5 inches.
Just about what I thought, about a 1/4 inch difference in span when the thumb pitch is reduced.
This makes many of my assumpitons above correct.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Thumb lateral pitches are determined by the coke bottle test which I have detailed in a post here called
Thumb lateral pithces(in drilling).
Finger lateral pitches no real formula.
However I have discovered some interesting relationships.
The more left I go with my thumb(under palm) the more my fingers want to be pitched right!
I look at my fingers and see if there is any twisting once in the ball.
Once you find this lateral pitch it never needs to be adjusted unless ones fingers change. Forward and reverse can be changed to effect ball roll however along with corresponding span changes to retain the same feel.
To adjust spans slightly 1/16 forward or reverse, I no longer redrill.
For example to go forward I bevel front and add a shim in back.
To go longer just the opposite. Saves a lot of time!
Can you go to Thumb under lateral post I have found it very valuable.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Ubrey1 was nice enough to message me with the following info that makes sense I think.
His real span is 4 7/8(near 0 finger forward/reverse finger pitch) vs his current 4 1/2.
This shortening was in line with my experiment above of where a dramatic forward pitch vs a strong reverse pitch would shorten the span at least 1/4 of an inch. In his case actually 3/8. The dramatic forward pitch does not allow the hand to stretch as far!
He has also lost flexibility over the years and is partly using reverse because of this problem. I say his real span(near 0 pitch is actually near 4 1/4 with this amount of forward pitch.
It all fits thanks Ubrey1 for your replies back to me.
Note I still believe one should not just go out and apply forward thumb pitch using the same current span that you have. Pitch is not applied in a vacumm.
The span and bowler's tendancy's must be known.
REgards,
Luckylefty
Can you rev-
If you point directly at your index finger when holding a coke bottle then your actual pitch is 1/8 away or left. In between index or middle is 0.
That small of a difference is not big. Most people should be moving around their center starting point for lateral pitch about an 1/8 of an inch either way! No more.
The Dude.
According to the Bill Taylor tables 4 3/4 is 1/4 reverse listed above.
Perfect! You now have the perfect fit according to the tables 63 degrees!
If you were still coming out quick it may be because you have a short or wet thumb and could easily go to 1/8 reverse and not be anything unusual.
What I'm seeing instead is guys using 1/4 forward on spans of 4 1/2.
This can be dangerous without additional bevel unless one makes a compenating dramatic move in reverse on the fingers(which has the effect of shortening the span really). Or increase bevel in the front lip. It does not reduce holding power at all!
Yes as bull stated you mentioned late
