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Author Topic: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?  (Read 5200 times)

roger

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Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« on: April 20, 2008, 03:36:40 AM »
I would like to know as asymmetrical flip layout (strong midlane layout) use small drilling angle and VAL angle (giving short transition from skip-hook-roll), if the asymmetrical flip layout does work on long and heavy oil pattern?


Edited on 4/20/2008 12:10 PM

 

wpzone

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #1 on: April 22, 2008, 01:44:25 AM »
anybody?  I would like to see a discussion on this as well.

LuckyLefty

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #2 on: April 22, 2008, 09:52:48 AM »
I don't think so....the idea with the pin up so far is for it to move some time after the pattern ends and then respond strongly to the friction found.

In general I like balls with the pin farther down for those longer patterns.

Sometimes more down into the revs leverage area!

REgards,

Luckylefty
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Dan Belcher

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #3 on: April 22, 2008, 10:27:07 AM »
Long patterns are tricky.  When the shot is fresh and the backends are clean, a higher pin placement will give you a quick response to the friction and a quick change of direction.  This can help you get better entry angle to kick out the corner pins.  However, once the carrydown hits, the ball will have a tendancy to go too long and not recover enough on the back.  Then you might need something drilled to roll a little earlier, but beware of drying heads after a few games.  That's when the fun begins as you combat drying heads and tight backends.  I think the goal is going to be looking for good midlane read.  How you get to that point is the tough part.  (I still haven't figured it out for my game!)

khamûl

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #4 on: April 22, 2008, 11:59:22 AM »

roger,

given your profile(lack of tilt) and depending on the ball chosen (i would stick with stronger asymmetrical's personally) and the lane surface...

i would say that a variation of the "flip richard" would certainly play well on longer patterns for you.  i would keep the drilling angle larger than the val angle to encourage the ball to retain axis tilt longer and i would use pin placements closer to leverage.  use balls will longer than normal pin to cg distances and keep the balance holes (if used) inside the val and south of your pap (p3 & p4 holes for those versed in gradient line theory).  


(ll & dan)

i disagree with "hi pins go long".  holes remove mass.  removing mass increases the rg on the axis that the hole is drilled.  if you remove mass from the top of the core (by drilling "lo pins"), you raise the rgs in the area where rgs are lowest, which decreases rg differential.  less diff generally equals less track migration (flare).  less flare equals less friction, yes?  less friction equals a ball that skids farther before slowing down enough to change direction.

conversely, drilling with the pins up above the fingers raise the average rgs in areas of the core where the rgs are already higher, which increases diff.  for a speed dominant player with low to average rotation, i'd take all the rg differential i can get.  in rogers case, shading everthing else in the layout to encourage continuation once the ball slows down combined with the proper ball selection and surface prep, should give him a nice "driver" for the bag.

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JessN16

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #5 on: April 22, 2008, 12:32:53 PM »
Can someone give me the specs for the "Flip Richard" in terms of dual-angle system measurements?

Jess

Next Level PS

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #6 on: April 22, 2008, 10:53:08 PM »
Khamul, you sound like a KING.

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Edited on 4/22/2008 10:55 PM
Next Level Proshop
Union, NJ

"THE BOWLERS WILL NOT BE DENIED"

www.lovedoublesonline.com

mrbowlingnut

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #7 on: April 22, 2008, 11:06:07 PM »
Denny Torgerson has written articles about this, I agree with him from real world experience you see a much more defined move to friction off a flip style drilling on longer oil.

To smooth it out bring it down near the grip centerline, i prefer small drilling angles larger near the VAL tend to roll forever in my hands.

I suspect that Next Level is right and the King might be back from the dead here

khamûl

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #8 on: April 23, 2008, 01:18:46 AM »
quote:
Anywhere from 13-18 mph, whatever is needed, tweener, versatile. My rev rate is a mystery...After having ditched a wrist brace for good, I'm learning more and more about how to change tilt and rotation to make adjustments...

someone with your versitility Jess, shouldn't need this much help in ball reaction .  

Mo's original "flip leverage" drillings were generally psa on the strong line with the pin 1 1/8" off the val @ leverage.  I no longer have layout tools to reverse engineer that... but that's OK cause Richard is adjustable to the individual player in the new millennium.

quote:

Smaller angle sums should always be used for:
Speed dominant players
Higher axis tilt players
Longer oil patterns
Higher volumes of oil on the lane

Larger angle sums should always be used for:
Rev dominant players
Lower axis tilt players
Shorter oil patterns
Lower volumes of oil on the lane

Medium angle sums should always be used for players whose ball speed and rev rate match.  


so "flip ricks" main constant is the (numerically) low pin to val angle.  you can basically adjust the drilling angle to suit...  

but, if i had to guess at a short quick answer (here at the end, lol) i would guess the original at 50 degrees by 3 3/8" by 20 degrees.
 
quote:
Khamul, you sound like a KING...
I suspect that Next Level is right and the King might be back from the dead here...

huh  
elvis i am not... lol, i think i am quite alive , and i sing more like  Waldo... "I'm nervous and my socks are too loose..."

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JessN16

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #9 on: April 23, 2008, 01:52:31 AM »
quote:
Quote

someone with your versitility Jess, shouldn't need this much help in ball reaction .  



Unfortunately, you have missed my numerous posts bemoaning my lack of consistency.  But yes, I am very versatile -- I am able to screw up in many different ways. (g)

Jess

Dan Belcher

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Re: Does Asymmetrical Flip work on long and heavy oil pattern?
« Reply #10 on: April 23, 2008, 07:21:57 AM »
quote:
(ll & dan)

i disagree with "hi pins go long".  holes remove mass.  removing mass increases the rg on the axis that the hole is drilled.  if you remove mass from the top of the core (by drilling "lo pins"), you raise the rgs in the area where rgs are lowest, which decreases rg differential.  less diff generally equals less track migration (flare).  less flare equals less friction, yes?  less friction equals a ball that skids farther before slowing down enough to change direction.

conversely, drilling with the pins up above the fingers raise the average rgs in areas of the core where the rgs are already higher, which increases diff.  for a speed dominant player with low to average rotation, i'd take all the rg differential i can get.  in rogers case, shading everthing else in the layout to encourage continuation once the ball slows down combined with the proper ball selection and surface prep, should give him a nice "driver" for the bag.
Yep.  In fact, notice that I never said "high pin layouts go long."  They only go long once carrydown prevents the ball from seeing as much friction as early as it does on fresh oil.  The higher pin position layouts tend to skid a little better through oil and react a little stronger to dry, while a lower pin layout seems to be a little smoother in transition and usually start just a hair earlier when in oil.  From my experience, when carrydown hits pretty badly, the pin up ball is going to be harder to face up to the pocket consistently simply because it's harder to find friction to get the ball to grab onto.