I'm wondering what the best way to layout mass bias is, and specifically what the most important measurement for mass bias reaction is. is it distance to pap or track? the same as pin layout is?

I see a lot of people say put it on the val or near the val or between the val and track. Isn't saying put something near val kind of like saying put something near ring finger since they are both based on grip and not an actual axis the ball is rotating on?

wouldn't the only measurement really accurate on the val be a specific distance from the axis and not just any place on the val itself?

also I'm wondering about degree layouts people use to say where to put the MB, if you can draw your degree line between the MB-pin and pin-PAP, then you can rotate that to put the pin where you want and that in turn swings the mass bias around, doesnt that make a degree layout different for each person depending on that bowler and how they rotated the degree around?

or maybe neither of those ways to layout the massbias are perfect/best? are there other ways?

I've never really fully understood the effects of mass bias and how to tell what those effects are exactly so I'm hoping somebody can explain it in some detail.

thanks

okay with your scenario it does work out so that the MB is not on the track but what does it prove. what does the MB being 4 inches from the PAP mean? anything?

75 degrees is known as the strong mass bias position

draw your MB-pin line
mark a line 75 degrees from it
mark your pap down that new line 4 inches
draw a arc around the pin 3 inches for a 3 inch pin-val buffer
connect the outside of that arc with your pap to form your val
now go down from the pap 3/4 and over 5 1/4 to find my grip center, using my spans in my profile draw the grip.

using 75 degree and a 4 inch pin puts the MB on my storm triple xtreme I was throwing this layout on for testing for this post at about 6 1/4 inches from the pap.

now in relation to my pap draw my track .5 from thumbhole, you will see that that the MB is nearly on my track. maybe half an inch away.

cleary not a position of strongest instability. I think this shows that degree layouts do not work for everybody for laying out MB.

so I'm wondering how to properly lay out MB to predict with certainty the reaction you are going to get from its position, not just a guestimate.

half way between the val and the track seems like the measurement that makes the most sense to me.

if by your 4x4 example you agree that we shouldnt use degree layouts for mass position then we need to know what different distances from the pap means. there are the charts from morich, one based on a mass bias of 6 3/4 and one for another one of their cores that I think has a 7 inch mass bias, and from those charts the skid/flip mass bias to pap distance changes based on pin-pap distance. so for example using 4 inches pap-mb distance with a 3 inch pin-pap is going to have a different MB effect than the same 4 inch pap-mb distance with a 5 inch pin.

the chart showing this is viewable at the bottom of
https://www.buddiesproshop.com/36/Asymetrical_Layout_Guide.htm

the variable effects of static distance for pap to mb make me think that the pap to mb distance is also not the best way to layout mb.

so far i've read nothing to the contrary of halfway between val and track being the strongest mass bias position. so it seems like all these other layout methods just try to mimic or get close to that position without just flat out saying put the MB between the track and the val.

that was long, let me know what you think.