Post by: qstick777 on April 20, 2007, 10:29:07 AM
PAP= 4 7/8 x 1/2 up
Revs ~ 250
Speed ~ 15 mph
Okay, I have a V2 Sweet x-out with the following specs:
3 1/2 oz top weight, and 5-6" pin.
What type of layout should/can I go with, and what type of reaction will it give me?
I was thinking of pin high and either:
a) label - drilling fingers deeper to remove weight, or
b) kicking CG and x-hole on the VAL in the thumb quadrant.
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Post by: JohnP on April 20, 2007, 10:30:59 PM
Post by: strikealot on April 20, 2007, 10:46:35 PM
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Post by: qstick777 on April 21, 2007, 03:59:27 PM
quote:
Before you do anything, confirm the cg location and top weight. If they are correct, I'd suggest a 4 x 4 1/2 with the pin above the fingers. That will put the cg close to grip center but kicked out enough to provide positive side weight in case you decide to add a balance hole to fine tune the reaction. -- JohnP
Thanks John!
I guess now that I have the scale and the instructions, I guess you expect me to learn how to use them?!? I thought I bought it just to look at it.
It'll probably take me all weekend to figure it out, but I guess I have to learn somehow.
I can't wait for all the pro shop guys to chime in with the "that's why we charge $xx for drilling a ball," and "that's what you get for buying a ball off the internet!"
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Post by: DP3 on April 21, 2007, 05:01:14 PM
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Post by: Re-Evolution on April 22, 2007, 01:58:30 AM
I mapped it out on some plotting software I have based on your PAP and a pin to CG distance of 5.5". All of the layouts I mapped had a pin distance of 5" with the CG distance ranging from 5-2". I just wanted to get an better idea of how far below the midline the CG would fall with varying degrees of CG shift. I can create a .jpg of it to give you an idea of where the pin and cg would be in relation to your grip.
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Post by: qstick777 on April 22, 2007, 09:09:08 AM
quote:
If it were me I would go with a 5 x 3 pin up 3.5". IMHO anything less than a pin up distance of 3.5 may make it difficult to remove the thumb weight based on the amount of top weight, especially if you choose to not swing the CG out toward your VAL.
I mapped it out on some plotting software I have based on your PAP and a pin to CG distance of 5.5". All of the layouts I mapped had a pin distance of 5" with the CG distance ranging from 5-2". I just wanted to get an better idea of how far below the midline the CG would fall with varying degrees of CG shift. I can create a .jpg of it to give you an idea of where the pin and cg would be in relation to your grip.
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That .jpg would be helpful.
What type of software are you using? I have a trial version of GripWare from Jayhawk, but to be perfectly honest I haven't been been able to figure it out! I know, I should just RTFM!
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Post by: 1fife on April 22, 2007, 09:13:48 AM
propbably be about a 5.5x3.5 drilling
Post by: Re-Evolution on April 22, 2007, 11:26:06 AM
quote:
That .jpg would be helpful.
What type of software are you using? I have a trial version of GripWare from Jayhawk, but to be perfectly honest I haven't been been able to figure it out! I know, I should just RTFM!
I also have GripWare but it is not very accurate when it comes to layouts so I use a non bowling related math program that with some ingenuity is quite useful. The pic only has a series of dots to show the pin, PAP and cg placements as well as lines to represent the midline and bridgline. Don't know your span and hole sizes or I could also map them.
Pic (http://"http://www.bowling-info.com/qstick-blem.jpg")
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Post by: qstick777 on April 22, 2007, 04:31:56 PM
quote:quote:
That .jpg would be helpful.
What type of software are you using? I have a trial version of GripWare from Jayhawk, but to be perfectly honest I haven't been been able to figure it out! I know, I should just RTFM!
I also have GripWare but it is not very accurate when it comes to layouts so I use a non bowling related math program that with some ingenuity is quite useful. The pic only has a series of dots to show the pin, PAP and cg placements as well as lines to represent the midline and bridgline. Don't know your span and hole sizes or I could also map them.
Pic (http://"http://www.bowling-info.com/qstick-blem.jpg")
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Thanks!
Span and grip are in my profile:
Total span: 4 1/4 and 4 3/8 (to with 1/8 pitch down, using powerlift inserts - size 11 and 21). Looks to be 3 7/8 & 4 1/16 cut-to-cut.
Thumb: 27/32 (3/16 left and 1/8 reverse)
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Post by: qstick777 on April 27, 2007, 09:11:58 PM
Okay, so looks like I'll go with drilling #8 (drilling sheet recommends pins of 3-6"....this one is 5 1/2")- http://www.ebonite.com/techcenter/drilling_instructions.php?title=Symmetric%20Core, which is basically as Re-evolution suggested - pin to PAP of 5", and CG to PAP of 3".
Ebonite list lane conditions as: Lighter oil with carrydown, great for players with slower ball speed, medium axis rotation, or stronger revs.
I did a crude layout tonight and it'll look something like this:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/qstick777/album/576460762351530136/photo/294928804353413841/21
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/qstick777/album/576460762351530136/photo/294928804353379840/22
Obviously I'll weigh it up before I do the final layout, and I'll use a sharper pencil and an actual span ruler (instead of just a quarter scale).
For the x-hole, Ebonite's drilling #8 suggests drawing a line from the grip center through the CG and putting the x-hole on the VAL.
This will be my first drill on anything other than a practice ball, so wish me luck! I hope it goes well, but I don't have a lot invested in this ball, so if I completely screw it up it won't be a huge loss!
Thanks for all the help!
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Post by: qstick777 on April 28, 2007, 08:03:19 PM
Screwed up when I set my lateral pitches on the finger - had it set backwards. So to avoid extreme lateral, or having the finger holes meet, I went ahead and shifted the drilling.
Ended up with 3" pin to PAP and 3" pin to CG.
Weighed the ball and ended up with 2 7/8 oz positive side weight and 1 1/2 oz thumb weight.
Figure I'll need a 1 1/8" hole approx 2 7/8" deep to bring it back to 1/2 oz side. I'm going to throw it before I put the x-hole, just to see how it reacts.
Any ideas for x-hole placement? Ebonite seems to recommend putting x-holes on the VAL, on line from grip center through the CG. That will put the x-hole 2 7/8" down from my PAP, and slightly right of the CG.
Pics:
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/qstick777/album/576460762351530136/photo/294928804354795852/24
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/qstick777/album/576460762351530136/photo/294928804354814992/23
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Edited on 4/28/2007 8:42 PM
Post by: qstick777 on April 30, 2007, 11:02:43 AM
quote:
Since everybody; except a few, agrees that static weights "nomadda"
can we assume there are two types of "holes"????
1. A weight hole to make the ball legal for static weight which doesn't affect the balls performance. Just drill it anywhere to remove weight desired, in area desired.
2. A balance hole that reaches into the core of the ball, changing core shape and thus core dynamics.
So, if I just want to make the ball legal, all I need to do it drill the hole to take out some weight. If I want to change the reaction, I need to hit the core?
Do I need to tell the ball what the hole is intended for?
I'm not sure I can drill almost 3" into the ball and not hit the core.
According to BrunsNick:
quote:
BrunsNick
Posted: 4/13/2007 12:10 PM
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Carl,
Any hole placed in the ball will alter the reaction to some degree. However, until you remove the mass, the ball reaction will not change.
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Post by: qstick777 on May 01, 2007, 09:20:12 AM
I'll be putting a huge hole in it!
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Post by: qstick777 on May 01, 2007, 05:08:11 PM
Put it right where Ebonite suggests, on the VAL, grip center thru the CG. Barely got it legal - ended up just under 1 oz of side weight, and 1 oz of finger weight (I think....I really need to write stuff down!).
I used the numbers from the Weight removal sheet from Jayhawk (http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/weightremoval.pdf), I guess the numbers are based on higher density balls, because I drilled a 1 1/8" hole about 3 inches (as far down as my press would go) and only took out a little more than 1 7/8 ounces.
Won't get to throw it again until tomorrow. Hopefully the reaction is better. If not, I guess I'll get to practice plugging!
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Post by: JohnP on May 01, 2007, 08:50:25 PM
quote:
I used the numbers from the Weight removal sheet from Jayhawk (http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/weightremoval.pdf), I guess the numbers are based on higher density balls, because I drilled a 1 1/8" hole about 3 inches (as far down as my press would go) and only took out a little more than 1 7/8 ounces.
The weight you removed will be distributed among side weight, finger/thumb weight, and top/bottom weight. The sum of the changes in all three should be very close to the 2.4 oz the chart says you removed. -- JohnP
Post by: qstick777 on May 01, 2007, 09:41:52 PM
quote:quote:
I used the numbers from the Weight removal sheet from Jayhawk (http://www.jayhawkbowling.com/Pro_s_Corner/Pro_Shop_Forms/weightremoval.pdf), I guess the numbers are based on higher density balls, because I drilled a 1 1/8" hole about 3 inches (as far down as my press would go) and only took out a little more than 1 7/8 ounces.
The weight you removed will be distributed among side weight, finger/thumb weight, and top/bottom weight. The sum of the changes in all three should be very close to the 2.4 oz the chart says you removed. -- JohnP
Thanks John! I didn't really think about that. I guess that adds up just about right. I guess I took out about a 1/2 ounce of thumb weight and almost 2 ounces of side weight.
I guess I can still try to take out some more thumb weight by drilling the thumb deeper.
From the FAQ, thumb weight will tend to promote earlier roll, and side weight tends to promote later roll. If I have about 1 oz of side and 1 oz of thumb, do they cancel each other out?
Another question. If I use a smaller drill bit and change the pitches, can I drill back into the same x-hole and make basically a second x-hole?
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Post by: qstick777 on May 02, 2007, 10:01:01 PM
quote:
g.....once you get past 1.5-2" of depth, all you're doing is removing total weight. Anything deeper than this is just to hit the core and remove mass from the core, changing core dynamics.
Yes, to your question of drilling through an existing hole at an angle to remove more weight without changing the diameter of the existing hole. It is Legal.
To get back to original question, why not try pin on VAL above PAP maybe two inches, cg on line to center of grip.
I have an higher RG ball drilled like this. Good revs, length, easy turn.
Thanks!
I threw the ball tonight during league. Originally looked like it wasn't going to work out for me. Ended up being great for the 3rd game. Very nice reaction on carry down. It's not a big hooker, but it was controlable and carry was very nice.
I'll say that it seems like it will serve a purpose, so I guess I'll leave it as is for now.
http://new.photos.yahoo.com/qstick777/album/576460762351530136/photo/294928804362194726/25
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Post by: Re-Evolution on May 02, 2007, 11:40:16 PM
quote:
Yes, to your question of drilling through an existing hole at an angle to remove more weight without changing the diameter of the existing hole. It is Legal.
This is only partially true, you can use a smaller bit at a different pitch to remove more weight but if any part of the hole extends beyond the original 1.125 hole it could be considered illegal. A ball must be free of voids and a hole drilled inside of another hole at an aternate pitch can make a void.
If this were not so then a bowler could drill twice with the same bit only with alternate pitches to make a larger hole with the same diameter at the surface.
If you look at this pic (http://"http://bowling-info.com/void.jpg") it shows what I am talking about. The section that is colored gray would be considered a void because it is outside of the original hole.
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