BallReviews
General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: bowlingjunkie on January 20, 2013, 11:06:57 AM
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Hello Everyone,
I have been reading comments from Ballreviews.com for a very long time but just now took the time to register so I'm a newbie.
I have been bowling for many years, and am a speed dominant bowler. Most of my equipment has always been drilled stack leverage. I went to my pro shop guy the other day to purchase a new ball (714C) and he said he could give me a much better layout if he used the dual angle procedure. So I find my PAP to be 6 1/8 ". I go back to the pro shop and when he lays the ball out, he said he wouldn't recommend it because the core was flipped to far so he drilled it the same as the rest. My question is can the dual layout really not be used with a PAP that large or do I have other options?
Thanks in advance for any help!
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My advice to you would be to go to bowlingchat.net and register on that site. Then go to the "Mo & Friends" section and click on the "Ball & Layout Advice" forum. Ask your question there. The founder of the Dual Angle system, Mo Pinel, is a regular there as well as numerous pro shop operators who use his layout system. The people that post there are very friendly and willing to help "newbies".
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Did you find your pap on a plastic ball or a flaring ball??
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I used an old urethane Sumo. It was the smallest ball I had.
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No reason you can't use dual angle layouts. I would recommend using a ball that flares some when finding your pap. You are drilling a ball that will flare so if you want the layout to be accurate you want the pap you use to be the same as it should be on the ball you are drilling. The one thing you have to understand is that all layouts can be expressed in dual angles. It's not like dual angle is some sort of extreme trick layout. So technically your ball still has a dual angle layout...
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I understand that every layout is technically a dual angle with the weight block in a practical postion. With Assymetrical balls, doesn't using the Pap to transition the weight block help with the desired reaction that I would be wanting? Or give a different look than I have been getting from the stacked leverage? I have had several pro shops drill ewuipment for me over the years and it seems all of them lay out balls the exact same for the most part and I have a lot of the same looks from my equipment. Only real variances are the coverstock to control when they start reading the lane.
Tdub, would you say that 900 Global Nuts pearl would be a better ball to try to find the PAP with?
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Not sure what you mean by a practical position??? Your pap will determine the position of the core once you release the ball. Once the ball is on the lanes where your finger and thumb holes are drilled makes no difference. Using the nuts pearl should give you a better idea. It probably won't change it a ton but should move it closer to 5.5" over i suspect. if he isn't using your PAP to drill your ball you aren't really getting stacked leverage....if he didn't wasn't to use your pap to drill the ball i wouldn't go back....just my opinion.
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Can you take a picture of your"favorite stacked leverage" layout. Dual angle can work with any pap. You just have to have an accurate pap. My guess is with that pap you have around a 5" span. If you need any further help with dual angle let me know.
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Thanks guys. I'll get a couple of pics up tomorrow for you Paul.
Tdub, when I was referring to "practical" I was meaning everything is stacked close to my span. The pro shop said with my PAP being where it seemed to be that it would kick the pin and CG way too far over.
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Bowling junkie I look forward to seeing it.
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Thanks guys. I'll get a couple of pics up tomorrow for you Paul.
Tdub, when I was referring to "practical" I was meaning everything is stacked close to my span. The pro shop said with my PAP being where it seemed to be that it would kick the pin and CG way too far over.
When he says "way too far over", you might want him to clarify what that means. Way too far over so that you might need an extra hole?
Sounds like he doesn't really know what he's talking about. Dual angle is dual angle no matter if your PAP is 3x1 or 6x0.
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Doom, most of my stuff have an extra hole. He said he was wanting to keep the total of the angles below 100*. That part was getting over my head. He said something about it being way too far over if he laid it out like 50*x30*
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It sounds like he may be confused a little.. The dual angle system is a great way to layout a ball with any PAP. If you could give us some more info on your game and what exactly you are looking for, you can get some great advice on exactly how to lay the ball out for your game.
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Thanks Jason, Here are the stats I know:
13* Axis Tilt
300 rev rate
16.7-17 mph
Not sure on Axis rotation and when throwing the Sumo my PAP was 6 1/8". I'll practice again Tuesday and try another ball to see if they are close.
Since I had never had anyone use the dual angle lay out, I was manly wanting to try it and see what it could offer. Like I had said earlier, Most of my equipment react similar just different boards based on coverstocks.
I have a Jet black Taboo, Purple Taboo, Challenge, Marvel Solid, Nuts pearl, and Ultimate Angular One
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I have a couple blank balls laying around, i can lay out a ball and send you a pic of what it looks like if you want. Just gimme your email. Every ball really has a dual angle layout like previously stated. Just knowing what the angles are gonna be before you start gives you the desired total reaction that fits your game. Lemme know man we're all here to help ya.
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Jason,
PM sent
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And I forgot to mention that I'm a lefty.
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Emails have been sent. :)
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Here are three of my favorite balls with the best shot of the layout I could take.
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Doom, most of my stuff have an extra hole. He said he was wanting to keep the total of the angles below 100*. That part was getting over my head. He said something about it being way too far over if he laid it out like 50*x30*
Ok, that's understandable. Different sums work for different games. Personally, I have balls with sums as little as 60, and as much as 140. They are drilled that way for different reactions. I find the sweet spot for me to be around 110. But you should get what it is you want. The lower the angles, the quicker the response to friction. So, if the second measurement was 30 degrees (Which is pin height), with all other factors (Pin to pap and MB angle) being the same, it would respond quicker to friction than a 60 degree angle.
Does that make sense? Dual angle used to be a little confusing to me, and I used to run a pro shop. But once I got it, it's very simple, and helps you understand your equipment much better.
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I think Mo posted that when finding your pap with a low flaring ball you have to adjust the distant for a higher flaring ball! I believe if the ball was a low flare plastic ball you adjusted your pap by 3/4" and the Sumo urethane was/is a lower flaring ball. Just a thought and check your pap on a stronger ball and measure your pap to see the difference!! Just a thought and my $.02, Bruce
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Junkie-
Thanks for the pics. Your pap on high flaring equipment is probably somewhere near 5 1/2 to 5 3/4 straight over. The reason your pro shop guy doesn't want to drill using t is because its not going to look like "a typical layout" for most players. None of those balls are drilled with a pin 3 3/8" from your pap which is the definition of leverage. As a speed dominate player try a 40 x 3 3/4" x 40 ill draw it on a ball tonight and show you would it should look like.
Paul
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Thanks guys for all your help. It has been very educational.