Author Topic: Dual Angle question (Read 7084 times)

Impending Doom · « **on:** January 14, 2012, 05:54:51 PM »

Ok, I am understanding the reasoning behind dual angle, and it's pretty awesome, because I have always agreed that 4 inches from pap can vary in a 90 degree angle (anywhere from minline to val line) and that a system such as this is good.

My question is that Mo says that as you add up the 2 angles, you will get similar reaction shapes

To quote Mo from morichbowling.com - "Keep this in mind -- the sum of the drilling angle and the angle to the VAL determines how quickly the ball transitions from skid to hook to roll. Using a smaller sum of the two angles will turn translational energy into rotational energy faster. And the shape of the breakpoint can be controlled by changing the relationship between the drilling angle and the angle to the VAL.

• Larger drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create later, sharper breakpoints (more backend).

• Smaller drilling angles in relation to the angle to the VAL will create a sooner, heavier roll (more midlane). "

So, a 30x4x70 would give you the same reaction total on the lane, but different shape, as a 70x4x30? Since the sums add up to 100, is that an accurate picture?

*Inventor of the FIBJAM*

The sky is falling

The end is near

The final warning

The sun disappears.

My arsenal

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67160612@N08/

Strokewiththelefthand · « **Reply #1 on:** January 15, 2012, 06:15:27 AM »

Pretty much, with respect to what the ball is designed to do and the bowler using it. Obviously, a ball engineered to hook more on the backend will respond better to the layout that allows it to save more energy to he back and vice versa as you will see on the lanes. 30x4x70 would be something I'd use in an asymmetrical piece to give me a strong overall reaction, getting the ball to start up a bit sooner and a defined backend reaction. The 70x4x30 would go in a symmetrical ball as im trying to get that cover to save more for the back. Now that's just what i'd do, the system is designed to be versatile, but you have the right idea.

Stan · « **Reply #2 on:** January 15, 2012, 06:50:44 AM »

Just to be clear, if you add a pin buffer to MB and Pin to PAP it is the same as a dual angle.

Strokewiththelefthand · « **Reply #3 on:** January 15, 2012, 07:24:45 AM »

Stan,
You're overcomplicating things. Pin buffer applies to the storm/roto system, not dual angle drillings. With dual angle, you determine pin to pap and depending on the angles you choose will determine where the pin and mb fall on the ball.

Stan · « **Reply #4 on:** January 15, 2012, 08:44:39 AM »

Sorry but in the dual angle method you determine the VAL angle which is the exact same thing as PIN Buffer. Forget which company use pin buffer, a layout is a layout. Getting back to dual angle, once you have your drill angle and your pin to pap located, that spot is exactly the same as pin to pap and mb to pap.

Dual Angle is not rocket science, just another layout method. As long as pin buffer is used in your layout method, you will get the same results as dual angle.

charlest · « **Reply #5 on:** January 15, 2012, 08:52:03 AM »

While the pin buffer is vaguely similar to the concept of the VAL angle, it is not the same.

Even if it were, then how do you account for the Drill angle, which is not the same as the MB distance from the PAP?

The Dual angle method accounts for everything involved in drilling, except the weight hole, which is accounted for in the Gradient concept. The Dual angle method is much more accurate and, to be honest, more sophisticated than Storm's concept.

I know we all like to keep things simple and direct, but when everything is not taken into account, you lose factors or aspects that can be important.

Stan wrote on 1/15/2012 9:44 AM:Sorry but in the dual angle method you determine the VAL angle which is the exact same thing as PIN Buffer. Forget which company use pin buffer, a layout is a layout. Getting back to dual angle, once you have your drill angle and your pin to pap located, that spot is exactly the same as pin to pap and mb to pap.

Dual Angle is not rocket science, just another layout method. As long as pin buffer is used in your layout method, you will get the same results as dual angle.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

Strokewiththelefthand · « **Reply #6 on:** January 15, 2012, 09:18:48 AM »

+1 Charlest

Stan · « **Reply #7 on:** January 15, 2012, 10:06:27 AM »

If you disect the dual angle and completely understand it, you will see it is just another method of laying out balls. I am not saying it is not a good method, but if you completely understand pin/mb to pap with pin buffer, you see it is the EXACTLY the same.

Had this conversation on bowling chat last year and even Mo came back and said the same and that is that Dual Angle is just another way to layout a ball. His method might be a bit easier for some and he also gave you parameters to base your angles on, and in my opinion, that is really the only difference.

Take this discussion to bowling chat and let others chime in.

charlest · « **Reply #8 on:** January 15, 2012, 10:31:33 AM »

I stated my opinion. This doesn't change it. Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.

While it's another way to layout a ball, I seriously doubt if Mo believes they are exactly the same.

Stan wrote on 1/15/2012 11:06 AM:If you disect the dual angle and completely understand it, you will see it is just another method of laying out balls. I am not saying it is not a good method, but if you completely understand pin/mb to pap with pin buffer, you see it is the EXACTLY the same.

Had this conversation on bowling chat last year and even Mo came back and said the same and that is that Dual Angle is just another way to layout a ball. His method might be a bit easier for some and he also gave you parameters to base your angles on, and in my opinion, that is really the only difference.

Take this discussion to bowling chat and let others chime in.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

glssmn2001 · « **Reply #9 on:** January 15, 2012, 12:27:39 PM »

It doesn't look like anyone tried to dissuade from your course. In saying that, does Mo have anything else to say or doubt, Mr Mo spoke person........haha. It is funny how people totally get bent went this discussion comes up. There is more than one way to layout a ball.....period......let it go......

charlest wrote on 1/15/2012 11:31 AM:I stated my opinion. This doesn't change it. Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.
While it's another way to layout a ball, I seriously doubt if Mo believes they are exactly the same.
Stan wrote on 1/15/2012 11:06 AM:If you disect the dual angle and completely understand it, you will see it is just another method of laying out balls. I am not saying it is not a good method, but if you completely understand pin/mb to pap with pin buffer, you see it is the EXACTLY the same.

Had this conversation on bowling chat last year and even Mo came back and said the same and that is that Dual Angle is just another way to layout a ball. His method might be a bit easier for some and he also gave you parameters to base your angles on, and in my opinion, that is really the only difference.

Take this discussion to bowling chat and let others chime in.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."
BowlingChat.net

JohnP · « **Reply #10 on:** January 15, 2012, 04:18:31 PM »

"Had this conversation on bowling chat last year and even Mo came back and said the same and that is that Dual Angle is just another way to layout a ball. His method might be a bit easier for some and he also gave you parameters to base your angles on, and in my opinion, that is really the only difference.

That's true, you can put three holes in a ball using any of the layout systems. The advantage to the dual angle system is that Mo has described how each of the elements affect ball motion and how to apply that to the customer's delivery specs to achieve the desired ball reaction. It takes most of the "mystery" out of ball layouts. And it works. -- JohnP

charlest · « **Reply #11 on:** January 15, 2012, 07:43:35 PM »

Of course there is more than 1 way to layout a ball.

You could also use the clock method.

glssmn2001 wrote on 1/15/2012 1:27 PM:It doesn't look like anyone tried to dissuade from your course. In saying that, does Mo have anything else to say or doubt, Mr Mo spoke person........haha. It is funny how people totally get bent went this discussion comes up. There is more than one way to layout a ball.....period......let it go......

charlest wrote on 1/15/2012 11:31 AM:I stated my opinion. This doesn't change it. Sorry, we'll have to agree to disagree.
While it's another way to layout a ball, I seriously doubt if Mo believes they are exactly the same.
Stan wrote on 1/15/2012 11:06 AM:If you disect the dual angle and completely understand it, you will see it is just another method of laying out balls. I am not saying it is not a good method, but if you completely understand pin/mb to pap with pin buffer, you see it is the EXACTLY the same.

Had this conversation on bowling chat last year and even Mo came back and said the same and that is that Dual Angle is just another way to layout a ball. His method might be a bit easier for some and he also gave you parameters to base your angles on, and in my opinion, that is really the only difference.

Take this discussion to bowling chat and let others chime in.

"None are so blind as those who will not see."
BowlingChat.net

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

Impending Doom · « **Reply #12 on:** January 16, 2012, 01:02:19 AM »

So I shouldn't drill all of my stuff with a 1:30 pin with half side? My pro shop operator told me that the mass bias thingie doesn't matter. I should always trust my pro shop guy! /sarcasm

*Inventor of the FIBJAM*

The sky is falling

The end is near

The final warning

The sun disappears.

My arsenal

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67160612@N08/

charlest · « **Reply #13 on:** January 16, 2012, 06:39:57 AM »

No, I think you should. After all, it IS a layout "method".

Impending Doom wrote on 1/16/2012 2:02 AM: So I shouldn't drill all of my stuff with a 1:30 pin with half side? My pro shop operator told me that the mass bias thingie doesn't matter. I should always trust my pro shop guy! /sarcasm

*Inventor of the FIBJAM*

The sky is falling
The end is near
The final warning
The sun disappears.

My arsenal

http://www.flickr.com/photos/67160612@N08/

"None are so blind as those who will not see."

BowlingChat.net

Author Topic: Dual Angle question (Read 7084 times)

Impending Doom

Dual Angle question

Strokewiththelefthand

Re: Dual Angle question

Stan

Re: Dual Angle question

Strokewiththelefthand

Re: Dual Angle question

Stan

Re: Dual Angle question

charlest

Re: Dual Angle question

Strokewiththelefthand

Re: Dual Angle question

Stan

Re: Dual Angle question

charlest

Re: Dual Angle question

glssmn2001

Re: Dual Angle question

JohnP

Re: Dual Angle question

charlest

Re: Dual Angle question

Impending Doom

Re: Dual Angle question

charlest

Re: Dual Angle question