Author Topic: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP (Read 3002 times)

baccala8872 · « **on:** January 11, 2012, 11:00:24 PM »

HI guys,

Any help you could supply would be greatly appreciated.

I've been struggling with carry for the better part of the year and have become increasingly frustrated with the countless 7-pins and 10-pins I've been leaving, mainly at critical points in the game. Granted I don't throw much ball, about 275 or so revs, but I suspect my PAP/drilling may have been the culprit.

Let me explain.

Once at a demo day, I was told that my PAP was 4.5" by 0.5" up. So, I've been running with that and have had my stuff drilled accordingly. So, on Monday night, a fellow bowler who I've only really exchanged "hello's" and niceties with and never had a real conversation with, comes up to me and says, "I've never seen anyone who hits the hole so often, doesn't carry, and still manages a 215 average." He then asked me if he could look at my equipment/bag where 4 out of my 5 balls were drilled pin up, 3 of those 4 pin over ring with the other one pin over bridge. He then grabbed my ball off the rack, looked at the oil, and asked what my PAP was.

I told him what I was told, 4.5 by 0.5 up. He told me no way was that even close. It turns out that it is 2 5/16" by 5/16" up.

So, were my carry problems related to my equipment being drilled "wrong" or "not optimally". What kind of pins should I be using? Layout options?

I value your opinions on here and I think that the technical expertise you guys could share with me, combined with conversation with the new local pro shop guy may help me optimize the rest of my season.

Again, anything you could share would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks,

Chris

If I ever saw an amputee being hanged, I'd just yell out letters. --DM

spmcgivern · « **Reply #1 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:28:52 AM »

Best suggestion is get your PAP measured again by your pro shop and re-evaluate your current arsenal with the proper angles and pin-PAP distances. It will probably explain why you are not carrying well.

Then I would either take one of your mid-range balls (or buy a mid-range ball) and have it drilled to match your current PAP measurement and see what the difference is. It should provide you with a better reaction and then you can decide what to do with the rest of your equipment. Chances are, with your new measured PAP, balls were rolling out on you.

I am not a pro-bowler, but I do play one on BallReviews.com

baccala8872 · « **Reply #2 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:33:58 AM »

Thanks for the reply, which made me realize that I forgot to add [in my haste to get this out before my meeting began this morning] that that PAP measurement was confirmed by the pro shop guy, who measured it then, and then again 5 frames later when I finished that game.

If I ever saw an amputee being hanged, I'd just yell out letters. --DM

Russell · « **Reply #3 on:** January 12, 2012, 07:59:08 AM »

Great advice above, if your PAP was that much higher, any ball drilled 4.5" pin to PAP was more like a 3" pin to PAP. This could have caused the balls to quit a bit downlane, which would tend to cause poor carry. Your angles would also be dramatically different, with extreme low tracks and lower revrates it is paramount to get the ball into a roll before it gets to the pins. If your balls were drilled 3" with weak Mass Bias placements, your balls was most likely still revving up as it was going through the pins.

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

dizzyfugu · « **Reply #4 on:** January 13, 2012, 06:59:47 AM »

Russell wrote on 12.01.2012 8:59 AM:Great advice above, if your PAP was that much higher, any ball drilled 4.5" pin to PAP was more like a 3" pin to PAP. This could have caused the balls to quit a bit downlane, which would tend to cause poor carry. Your angles would also be dramatically different, with extreme low tracks and lower revrates it is paramount to get the ball into a roll before it gets to the pins. If your balls were drilled 3" with weak Mass Bias placements, your balls was most likely still revving up as it was going through the pins.

That's what I wanted to suggest, too. If the pin is (in reality) less than, say, 3.5" from your PAP, its PSA is in the pin axis, not at 90° to it as it is supposed to be. Maybe that's something you can easily check, or have someone look at a shot of yours from the positive side (left for a righty). Such a "layout" makes the ball very rolly and smooth, it barely hooks (has very little back end, if at all!) and even tends to roll out very soon. That could be a plausible reason why you get poor carry even on good pocket hits.

DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
2010/11 Benrather BC Club Champion
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section

ithinkican · « **Reply #5 on:** January 13, 2012, 08:20:35 AM »

2 5/16" by 5/16" up?

?? is that even possible. first can you do me a favor and make sure that is your pap. to do this place a piece of tape on what you think is your pap. throw the ball a few times. if it truely is your pap then that piece of tape should stay in one spot on the first 15-25 feet of the lane before simutaneously changing and rolling around the ball. after you have found your pap message me personally and i can give you some more feedback. I personally have never heard of somebody with the kind of pap that you have listed unless they topped the ball.. If possible can you send me a video of your release to dakotajordan1792@yahoo.com. and i will be able to give you my personal feedback about your release and pap.

Edited by ithinkican on 1/13/2012 at 9:23 AM

Russell · « **Reply #6 on:** January 13, 2012, 08:38:34 AM »

I kind of thought the same thing too....in my years I've never seen a PAP closer than about 3 and 1/4" over. I would make sure the PAP is being checked with tape and not just an armadillo.

ithinkican wrote on 1/13/2012 9:20 AM:2 5/16" by 5/16" up??? is that even possible. first can you do me a favor and make sure that is your pap. to do this place a piece of tape on what you think is your pap. throw the ball a few times. if it truely is your pap then that piece of tape should stay in one spot on the first 15-25 feet of the lane before simutaneously changing and rolling around the ball. after you have found your pap message me personally and i can give you some more feedback. I personally have never heard of somebody with the kind of pap that you have listed unless they topped the ball.. If possible can you send me a video of your release to dakotajordan1792@yahoo.com. and i will be able to give you my personal feedback about your release and pap.

Edited by ithinkican on 1/13/2012 at 9:23 AM

Little known fact: In Russian "Hope" and "Change" translate to "Tax" and "Spend"

baccala8872 · « **Reply #7 on:** January 13, 2012, 08:42:03 AM »

Thanks so much.

I will try to get out this weekend and shoot some video. If not, I'll do some amateur footage from league on Monday night and send on.

Again, I really appreciate your taking time out to help.

--Chris

If I ever saw an amputee being hanged, I'd just yell out letters. --DM

JohnP · « **Reply #8 on:** January 13, 2012, 04:32:08 PM »

Watch the tape on your video and be sure it's stable as soon as it's off your hand. If it's not, move it around until it is, then measure that location. -- JohnP

FrontTwelv · « **Reply #9 on:** January 17, 2012, 01:47:23 PM »

As everyone has said, that's probably not your pap. If you are hitting the finger/thumb holes your pap is probably pretty far over, like 5 - 5 1/2. Get a reputable pro shop operator to help you out. Plug and re-drill one of your current pieces that you don't like with the new PAP coordinates. If this is not helping your carry, you need to change your hand position a bit to get the track off your finger/thumb holes.

Drew Jordan
Columbus, OH

Author Topic: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP (Read 3002 times)

baccala8872

Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

spmcgivern

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

baccala8872

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

Russell

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

dizzyfugu

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

ithinkican

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

Russell

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

baccala8872

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

JohnP

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP

FrontTwelv

Re: Help? Suggestions? Obtained "new" info on my PAP