Post by: agroves on June 20, 2010, 07:51:12 PM
For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100. My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30. These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.
What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me. My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core). Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me. Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil. However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage. This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.
For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions). I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently. That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle. Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.
For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend. This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals. Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*. This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.
I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet. I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new. I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop. I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.
I will say that my observations are made on a med to heavy oil, 40 foot THS(kinda close to Middle Road IMO) with a soft taper(not real wet/dry when they are fresh).
I'd be interested to hear from others their recommendations and experience with different styles as it pertains to dual angle layouts. I'll post this same topic at bowlingchat as well.
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
Post by: No Revs00300 on June 21, 2010, 04:11:09 AM
Post by: Pat Patterson on June 21, 2010, 06:15:09 AM
--------------------
Pat Patterson
Post by: elgavachon on June 21, 2010, 08:58:55 AM
quote:
So, I've been using the dual angle technique on my equipment as well as high average bowlers to help dial in specific reactions. I'm learning as I go what works and what does not for different styles.
For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100. My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30. These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.
What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me. My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core). Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me. Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil. However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage. This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.
For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions). I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently. That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle. Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.
For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend. This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals. Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*. This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.
I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet. I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new. I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop. I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.
I will say that my observations are made on a med to heavy oil, 40 foot THS(kinda close to Middle Road IMO) with a soft taper(not real wet/dry when they are fresh).
I'd be interested to hear from others their recommendations and experience with different styles as it pertains to dual angle layouts. I'll post this same topic at bowlingchat as well.
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
Post by: batbowler on June 25, 2010, 10:35:53 AM
--------------------
"Train a child up in the way they should go and when they are old they will "Get MOTIVated, and not turn from it and become a bowling VISIONARY who sees a striking future.
Bruce Campbell
USBC Bronze Certified Coach
IBPSIA Certified Technician
Originator of the -35deg x 25 leverage drilling!
http://www.motivbowling.com/products/2/
http://visionarybowling.com/?cat=4
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 25, 2010, 10:48:42 AM
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Post by: ToiletLogCore on June 25, 2010, 11:30:46 AM
quote:
So, I've been using the dual angle technique on my equipment as well as high average bowlers to help dial in specific reactions. I'm learning as I go what works and what does not for different styles.
For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100. My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30. These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.
What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me. My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core). Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me. Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil. However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage. This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.
For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions). I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently. That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle. Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.
For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend. This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals. Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*. This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.
I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet. I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new. I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop. I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.
Wow, I am very impressed with how quickly you've learned what works and doesn't work for your style, which just so happens to be EXACTLY what MO explained would work and wouldn't work for your type of style when he originally came up with Dual Angles. Congrats...
--------------------
You've just been handed a little TLC
Post by: J_Mac on June 25, 2010, 11:55:04 AM
quote:
I have 3 balls with dual angle drillings. Two with 45* x 4" x 50* (a Pearl and a Solid) and one with 45* x 3 1/2" x 50* (a Solid). The 45* x 4" x 50* on the Pearl works really-really great. However, although not to bad, the drillings I have on the 2 solids are not all that great and I would definitely try something different next time.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Every ball you have has a dual angle layout on it. These layouts can be reverse engineered just like any other layout...
Post by: Brickguy221 on June 25, 2010, 10:58:26 PM
quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have 3 balls with dual angle drillings. Two with 45* x 4" x 50* (a Pearl and a Solid) and one with 45* x 3 1/2" x 50* (a Solid). The 45* x 4" x 50* on the Pearl works really-really great. However, although not to bad, the drillings I have on the 2 solids are not all that great and I would definitely try something different next time.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every ball you have has a dual angle layout on it. These layouts can be reverse engineered just like any other layout...
That is true. I didn''t indicate every ball I have is or is not a dual angle layout. The topic was.... "Dual Angles, what works for you".....I named off 3 specific balls, what the drillings were and their results, so what''s your point?
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 6/25/2010 11:01 PM
Post by: agroves on June 25, 2010, 11:22:07 PM
quote:quote:
quote:
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I have 3 balls with dual angle drillings. Two with 45* x 4" x 50* (a Pearl and a Solid) and one with 45* x 3 1/2" x 50* (a Solid). The 45* x 4" x 50* on the Pearl works really-really great. However, although not to bad, the drillings I have on the 2 solids are not all that great and I would definitely try something different next time.
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Every ball you have has a dual angle layout on it. These layouts can be reverse engineered just like any other layout...
That is true. I didn''t indicate every ball I have is or is not a dual angle layout. The topic was.... "Dual Angles, what works for you".....I named off 3 specific balls, what the drillings were and their results, so what''s your point?
--------------------
"Whenever I feel the urge to exercise I lie down until the feeling passes away."
Brick
Edited on 6/25/2010 11:01 PM
Brick was is your specs? Ball speed, rev rate, tilt, axis rotation?
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
Post by: J_w73 on June 25, 2010, 11:47:45 PM
60 deg MB / 30 degree VAL.
Pretty much get a long pin (4 1/2 to 5 1/2 " ) on every ball so I can set it up like a double thumb drilling.. most of the time I haven't needed the hole but I have the option If I want to tweak the reaction..
--------------------
18 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, 15 deg axis tilt, varied rotational axis deg.. usually 45+
HighGame 300 x 5, High Series 808
Book Average 220,PBA Xperience 185
Post by: Raven829 on June 26, 2010, 12:13:20 AM
Don
--------------------
"You cannot change the stripes of a leopard."
~Emmitt Smith
Post by: Doug Sterner on June 26, 2010, 12:31:42 AM
I drilled a blue/silver Backlash with 60x4x60 and a Mission with the same layout. I like both balls A LOT on our house shot on wood lanes. My Big Curve is drilled 60x5x60 and is perhaps one of the most versatile balls I have ever used.
I have a Dynamo X-2 at 60x5x40 that is very good as well although it does read the friction a little too strong for most patterns...DUH!! I think that's what Mo said a smaller VAL angle would do...right??? DUH !!
On synthetics I like my Blue Death at 35x5-1/4x75 and my Curve at 25x5-1/5x45.
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on June 26, 2010, 05:05:49 PM
However, on a ths, I never take anything stronger than 65* 5 1/4" 65*.
--------------------
www.youtube.com/c6evolution2008
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Post by: pin-smasher on June 27, 2010, 06:03:57 PM
Post by: cheech on June 27, 2010, 06:57:40 PM
quote:
will the dual angle technigue work on a ball that the cg is out of line?
for an asymmetric with the CG out of line im pretty sure you just draw a line from the pin through the mass bias.
my favorite dual angles are 55x5x40 and 65x6x40
--------------------
HG:300x2(SR300 both)
HS:792(SR300)
sacred heart university bowling, soph.
greatest accomplishment:shooting 603 and not shooting one 200 game(130,173,300)...lol
balls for sale in my profile
p.s. go leftys
Post by: pin-smasher on June 27, 2010, 06:59:41 PM
Post by: A_P_K on June 27, 2010, 07:02:24 PM
I like to stay between 90 and 100 with the angle sums due to being speed dominant.
--------------------
The original Pin Krusher
Post by: mainzer on June 27, 2010, 11:28:37 PM
the Other one that I really enjoy is 35x4 1/2x35 for strong pearls my ball speed gets it down lane ball makes a pretty strong move off the spot but is yet easy to control, I prefer this layout over having the pin under the ring finger, with this pattern the pin is over the ring finger, I know that might be hard to beleive.
--------------------
"{ATTACK} Is the only order worth remembering"
+++Kharn The Betrayer+++(War Hammer 40,000)
Founding FatherBR Inquisition
MainzerPower
Post by: themagician on June 27, 2010, 11:56:35 PM
--------------------
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: JohnP on June 28, 2010, 11:14:45 AM
Post by: agroves on June 28, 2010, 08:22:50 PM
quote:
Keep in mind that the beauty of the dual angle technique is that it matches the layout to the bowler's characteristics better than the other methods. So what works for me probably won't work as well for you and vice versa. That's why I seldom reply to this type of question. -- JohnP
It is called, "whats working for YOU".....reply away.
--------------------
Proshop Operator
North Bowl Bowling Center
www.northbowlspokane.com
Post by: pin-smasher on June 28, 2010, 10:07:53 PM
Post by: Doug Sterner on June 28, 2010, 10:51:25 PM
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")
Post by: pin-smasher on June 28, 2010, 10:56:15 PM
Post by: BeansProShop on July 08, 2010, 12:24:10 AM
quote:quote:
So, I've been using the dual angle technique on my equipment as well as high average bowlers to help dial in specific reactions. I'm learning as I go what works and what does not for different styles.
For me(med revs, faster speed, low axis rotation, moderate tilt), the sum of the angles needs to be around 100. My favorites are my Momentum Swing, 70 x 4.75 x 30, and my Rampage, 70 x 5.5 x 30. These two seem to give the best mix of midlane read with backend pop.
What I'm learning is that a 30* Val angles works well for me. My total bedlam is 35 x 4.25 x 35(too much too early) and my NSane Levrg is 50 x 4 x 40*(should have gone longer with the drilling angle b/c of the strong core). Both of those balls are very hit and miss for me. Both seem to be too early for the dry or too late for the oil. However, I get the same overall hook with NSane and Rampage. This gives me a nice combo if I need just alittle different motion to carry the corner.
For those with slower ball speeds, I've found that 30* val angles are too quick off the friction and severely lack the continuation needed to produce good carry/blend the wet/dry(house conditions). I've noticed that something closer to 50 to 70* Val angles give those with slower speeds a bigger window to carry consistently. That said, the shorter VAL angles do work well, IF, and only if, those with slower speeds play the straight up the puddle. Once they try the out and back, it expends all the energy at the friction.
For the up the back end over enders, I've found that 25-30* VAL angles with LONG drilling angles(65-80) give them the best blend of length and pop on the backend. This somewhat applies to me, but I've drilled more than a couple for some very low axis rotation individuals. Most of them, I've given something like 70 x 3 1/2(to 4) x 25/30*. This helps get the ball up the lane but respond quickly to help them carry better.
I haven't had much experience with heavy handed guys yet. I have one guy that I work with who is looking for something new. I would think something with a short VAL, like 20*, would work well b/c it would give him a flip and stop. I've drilled him some longer VAL stuff and he hooks it off the planet...lol I tried a VG with a 20* VAL and hated it.
Wow, I am very impressed with how quickly you've learned what works and doesn't work for your style, which just so happens to be EXACTLY what MO explained would work and wouldn't work for your type of style when he originally came up with Dual Angles. Congrats...
--------------------
You've just been handed a little TLC
Thought Lou Marquez came up with the dual angle technique. I may be wrong.
Beans
--------------------
www.beansproshop.com
--------------------
Thomas "Beans" Biniek Jr.
PBA Member and Pro Shop Owner/Operator
Check out current eBay auctions at:
http://cgi6.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewSellersOtherItems&userid=bowling_with_leah Official Pro Shop of "ALL" F.O.S. Members!!!
Post by: Yanker on July 08, 2010, 08:23:25 AM
Post by: JustRico on July 08, 2010, 08:49:38 AM
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: scotts33 on July 08, 2010, 09:01:12 AM
quote:
Who was it that said...the toughest course to play, is the 6 inches beteen his ears....
The great South African golfer Bobby Locke
(4 time winner of the British Open) said:“The toughest six inches in golf is the six inches between your ears.â€
Arthur D’Arcy “Bobby†Locke (born 20th November 1917, died 1987) was the first great South African golfer, and one of the greatest – and most unusual – putter the game has seen.
--------------------
Scott
Post by: dizzyfugu on July 08, 2010, 09:03:07 AM
--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Post by: JustRico on July 08, 2010, 09:11:48 AM
Bobby Jones-'Competitive golf is played mainly on a five-and-a-half-inch course...the space between your ears'
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico
Post by: Doug Sterner on July 08, 2010, 03:32:10 PM
Mo's knowledge of the rotational dynamics of a drilled bowling ball and the subsequent difference in ball reaction led to the "exactness" of the system.
Add the Gradient line balance hole concept to the Dual Angle and you get a technique which is very accurate in determining what a bowling ball will do when drilled with a given layout.
If you read the Dual Angle section on Mo's website he gives credit up front to Lou Marquez for getting the ball rolling so to speak :-)
--------------------
Doug Sterner
Doug's Pro Shop
Owego, NY
http://dougsproshop@aol.com
www.dougsproshop.net
Lane 1 Buzzsaw...The Official Power Tool Of Bowling
For Real Time Interactive Bowling Conversation:
BowlingChat.net (http://"http://www.bowlingchat.net")