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Author Topic: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?  (Read 2758 times)

LaneHammer20

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MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« on: April 14, 2009, 04:54:25 AM »
I am not a ball driller, so I will try to make this a understanding as possible.

I just aquired a 2nd Break S75, with a pin that is 1.5in. I am going to go with a pin down layout under my bridge, whihc should put the pin right at 5 - 5 1/4 from PAP. my question is that When i say 4in. MB to PAP, with the pin below my bridge that makes the MB quite a ways down from my Thumb hole to the right, looking like it is pretty close to my VAL.

It seems as though you have to go with further MB to PAP distances to stay away from your VAL when dowing pin down distances to prevent way early burn for a guy like myself that has above average hand.

When you go pin up 4 inches to PAP with the MB puts it like 3 2.5-3icnhes from my VAL instead of like 1 inch or so, this is by my eye's btw, when doing a pin down layout with the same MB to PAP distance.

I had a Cell pearl that i did a 5x3 layout on pin up, the MB was pretty darn close to my VAL, the ball just wanted to roll up to fast on anyhting but the perfect condition. I have been staying away from my VAL on my most recent high mass bias pieces.

Any experienced drillers want to help me out with this. This is going to be a heavy oil piece. just don't want it being a dud on anything but buckets of oil.

If you need me to try and clarify, I will try better. I think I did a good job though of explaining.
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LaneHammer20

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2009, 05:35:05 PM »
I looked it over , this is easier to understand.

A 4 inch MB to PAP is closer to your VAL on a pin down layout than it is on a pin up layout. Correct?
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LaneHammer20

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2009, 10:47:13 PM »
Anyone
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the pooh

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2009, 11:11:30 PM »
I can relate to everything you said.I am a slightly rev dominant tweener and lately have had the greatest success with mass bias placements in the 5 1/2" to 6 1/2" range.This gives me a nice controllable arc that doesn't quit. One of the sweetest reacting balls I've owned of late has been a Cell laid out 2 1/2 X 6 1/2. For backend,I keep the drill angle 60* to 70* and the mb in the 4 1/2 to 5 1/2 range,with a close pin buffer.Hope this helps!
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tenpinspro

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #4 on: April 15, 2009, 02:16:38 AM »
quote:
I had a Cell pearl that i did a 5x3 layout on pin up, the MB was pretty darn close to my VAL, the ball just wanted to roll up to fast on anyhting but the perfect condition.


Hi Cory,

Based on your pap, I feel this is the reason for the ball rolling up so quick.  A 3 inch placement with any decent strength mb (which the Cell is) will cause a ball to roll pretty quickly.  Since you're only a 1/2 up in vertical movement on your val, you really don't have what would be defined as having a "lot" of tilt, "some" but not a lot.

I'd suggest keeping the pin where you were thinking (5-5 1/4) but push the mb back to about 4.5 or so (similar to what pooh has stated) which would help push you down lane easier and help store more energy for backend or down lane reaction.  Hope this helps some...
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LaneHammer20

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2009, 07:57:38 AM »
Ya I definitly won't being going anywhere below 4 inches with my MB.

But I am still looking for an answer to my question. Being would a pin down 5 inch pin to PAP layout with a 4 inch MB tp PAP, cause my MB to be closer to my VAL than the same 5x4 layout with the pin up.


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tenpinspro

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2009, 09:42:43 AM »
quote:
But I am still looking for an answer to my question. Being would a pin down 5 inch pin to PAP layout with a 4 inch MB tp PAP, cause my MB to be closer to my VAL than the same 5x4 layout with the pin up.


Yes, with the pin down layout the mb would be closer to val.  This is unavoidable as we are dealing with a spherical object.
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JohnP

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2009, 09:48:52 AM »
quote:
Since you're only a 1/2 up in vertical movement on your val, you really don't have what would be defined as having a "lot" of tilt, "some" but not a lot.


Axis tilt depends only on initial track diameter, not at all on the vertical PAP coordinate.  Now, if you mean the way the track is angled, yes it is slightly angled from the thumb away from the fingers.

 
quote:
But I am still looking for an answer to my question. Being would a pin down 5 inch pin to PAP layout with a 4 inch MB tp PAP, cause my MB to be closer to my VAL than the same 5x4 layout with the pin up.


Yes, a pin down 5 x 4 will cause the MB to be closer to the VAL.  The pin and MB are two points on an arc around the PAP.  As you move the pin down on the arc the MB moves down and in closer to the VAL.  --  JohnP
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LaneHammer20

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2009, 12:37:14 PM »
Thats what I thought. I am assuming going with a longer MB to PAP on pin down layouts would be ok because the pin being closer to midline would be the majority of the reaction shape. Maybe 5 X 4 1/2 or something would be better.

This ball has a higher MB than the Cell pearl, and stronger cover, with about the same differential. Going to strong with pin distance and being to close to VAL sorta worries me. I went to close to vAL once and had bad results.

Definitly going pin under though
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pin-chaser

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2009, 01:07:05 PM »
One day... I hope to bowl so good that employing this level of layout information will make a difference to me. I have got so far to go.
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LaneHammer20

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2009, 04:29:01 PM »
quote:
One day... I hope to bowl so good that employing this level of layout information will make a difference to me. I have got so far to go.


You do state a good point. I won't notice such differences as like 1/8 or 1/4 inch with the pin or MB. But 1/2 inch on either one is pretty noticable to me, especially the pin to PAP distance. 4 1/2 for me is a whole ball flarer, and rendered useless on most shots, or uncontrollable.

It may not matter that much to you. But if I am going and spending 200 dollars on a ball. I want to be as cautious as I can be.
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tenpinspro

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Re: MB to VAL on pin down layouts question?
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2009, 08:26:10 AM »
quote:
Axis tilt depends only on initial track diameter, not at all on the vertical PAP coordinate. Now, if you mean the way the track is angled, yes it is slightly angled from the thumb away from the fingers.


Yes John, you are correct.  I was generalizing from practical experience.  
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Hey Cory,

One more monkey wrench for you (wrote this up a few years ago in the Track forum).  Having been on staff, I was able to personally watch and throw pieces where I saw mb strengths increase and the effect it had on placement to a bowlers pap.

Hypothetically speaking, say you had a piece at 5x3.5mb (where mb rating was .012) with the pin 3 inches above mid line and the reaction was fine.  Now take another piece at basically the same cover and layout but the mb rating was now .025, you may end up getting a totally different reaction.  The stronger the mb is, the more sensitive it becomes to placement.

If you or anyone else who remembers my analogy of mass bias being equal to a handle on a coffee cup, picture that handle now being twice the size.  We would no longer need to place it as far over the edge of a table for it to pull the coffee cup over.  Hope this makes sense or helps some...


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