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General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: bfreshour on March 17, 2010, 01:03:39 AM

Title: Expected Reaction?
Post by: bfreshour on March 17, 2010, 01:03:39 AM: I'm hoping someone can help me, because I want to know if I should get a new ball...

I received a Mission X-OUT from a friend (my first, ball just started bowling 2 months ago). Anyway, I took it to the Pro Shop and had the Pro there drill it. She said she wasn't sure how it would react and explained to me why it was an X-OUT but I didn't really understand. I think it has something to do with the PIN, CG, MB (aren't they all suppose to be in a straight line?). One of the marks is way off... I drew this in paint since I haven't had time to take an image hoping someone could help.

The red mark is the pin, the green mark is the little hand symbol (CG?), and the orange dot is the other mark (MB?). Of course the black dots are my holes (finger tipped).

http://imgur.com/GfjO4.png

So my question is, how should I expect this ball to roll? I have low revs, and an experience bowling I bowl with said he would classify me as a stroker type.
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: charlest on March 17, 2010, 09:20:00 AM: 1. It is not unusual for the pin/CG/MB not to be inline. Some people and some drillers even prefer that. It is unusual for the CG to be 2" or more from the pin-MB line.

2. The relationship of the 3 points HELP to determine the possibilities of the placement of the pin and the MB with respect to your PAP and the reaction you'd like to get from the ball. The actual position of the CG is unimportant to the ball's reaction.

3. Where the CG does come into play is 2 places:
a) How the static weights can be made legal. If the CG is not within certain parameters of the center of the grip, a weight hole may be necessary to make the ball legal.
b) The weight hole can have an extremely important role in the ball's reaction. So when the CG is way off line, that can prevent the driller from putting the weight hole where it is necessary or useful, depending on where he has determined the pn and the MB must be to get the desired reaction from this ball for you.

So it's not what reaction will these points (pin, CG, MB) provide. It's where can they be placed to get the reaction you want.

Usually when the CG is so far away from the pin-MB line, they will call this a "Pro CG" ball.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: justdale on March 17, 2010, 09:21:16 AM: your pro shop operator should've weighed it before drilling, and then they would've known what was what

but as said many times before

" CG nomaddah"
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Dale Williams
Columbia 300 Utah Amateur Staff
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: bfreshour on March 17, 2010, 09:29:24 AM: Ok, I think this helps a little, but I'm still confused. Is the hand symbol on the mission the CG or MB? It's in the center of my grip so I thought it was CG.

Like I said, I'm clueless about these, even after reading this:

http://www.bowlingfans.com/jeff/ballreactionbasics.html

I'm guessing you can't tell me what the ball will do based on my diagram without knowing my PAP, etc... I'm so frustrated... This is suppose to be a heaving hooking ball from what I can tell, but this ball doesn't hook much IMO and I have no idea if it's my release or the ball, or the way the ball is drilled. Which is why I asked here.

If it was easy for me to go ask the Pro more info, I would, but I work a lot, she's closed when I'm available, etc... Having a 11mo old daughter doesn't help matters...
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: kidlost2000 on March 17, 2010, 09:36:40 AM: I just recently drilled up a original Ebonite One x-out very similar to this and it rolls great.

Many people are scared of bowling balls like this sometimes and shouldn't be.

As long as she has a general idea of how you throw the ball when she laid it out you should be ok.

Judging by the pin position I would say the ball should roll very aggressive. I have drilled many balls similar to this with the MB out near my positive axis point and the pin close to the fingers with great results. All where great aggressive bowling balls.

Just don't do like some people and throw the ball less then a game and say it doesn't work right.
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" men lie, women lie, numbers don't "
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: bfreshour on March 17, 2010, 09:41:28 AM: No, no. I've thrown this ball since my 3rd week of league, so maybe 5 weeks now, and other than that it probably has around 20 practice games on it.

I haven't had time to get a lesson yet, which I'm really wanting to do, but I feel like I don't get much reaction out of the ball. I'm not sure if its my release, the ball, or something else (like just being a new bowling and being inconsistent).

Anyway, I really appreciate the informative responses.
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: dizzyfugu on March 17, 2010, 10:04:18 AM: Honestly, IMHO (and from personal experience and insight), if you are a beginner a strong MB ball like the Mission or any other high end asymmetrical piece is potentially a BAD choice.
This kind of ball calls for a proper and stable game/release, and they can be very touchy concerning the drilling and setup because through the core's construction. They tend to follow a more specific reaction than "normal" balls, and generally offer less room for error and versatility concerning lane conditions.

Using a blem or X-out ball does not help either. Sure these can be drilled, and sometimes are a good choice for a specific reaction. But I would not wonder if you get a goofy reaction out of it...

IMHO, wrong ball at the wrong time - even if it was cheap or even free. A simple, mid-prized piece would IMHO have been more sensible - good luck, though!
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DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany

Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: bfreshour on March 17, 2010, 10:17:46 AM: dizzyfugu, can't disagree, however the ball was free, and so it's what I have to use for now but I think I'm going to try to get another mid-range non X-OUT ball...
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: JohnP on March 17, 2010, 05:17:52 PM: Ebonite's standard marking for cg location is a series of concentric circles. I've only drilled a couple of Missions, but I don't remember an unusual cg marking. Maybe they mark cg's on their X-outs with a "hand". -- JohnP
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: elgavachon on March 17, 2010, 09:22:57 PM: it looks to me like the ball is drilled to roll early. could be if you have a slow ball speed or not too many revs, that the ball is rolling too early which will give it the appearance of a dead ball.
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: bfreshour on March 17, 2010, 09:39:00 PM: You are right, it is a series of circles... It also turns out my illustration isn''''t as good as I thought (done from memory). I took pictures:

In this first pictures you can see the pin and CG are nearly next to each other if you draw a line from the pin to MB (the mark on the bottom left of the ball)

http://imgur.com/aavJY.jpg

Second photo just shows more top down view of the drill with pin and CG. The MB would be somewhere on the bottom right.

http://imgur.com/v9iXc.jpg

Edited on 3/17/2010 9:41 PM
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: dizzyfugu on March 18, 2010, 03:11:40 AM: quote:
Ebonite's standard marking for cg location is a series of concentric circles. I've only drilled a couple of Missions, but I don't remember an unusual cg marking. Maybe they mark cg's on their X-outs with a "hand". -- JohnP

Sounds like a traditional Columbia CG marking? That used to look like a hand on top of a bowling ball?
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DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany

Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com's vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: the pooh on March 18, 2010, 08:51:51 AM: Without knowing your pap, in general, this ball should roll immediately off your hand and flare a lot. Unless you have huge speed/and or large degree of tilt, the ball may appear to not hook. We usually look for hook downlane, so a ball that goes into forward roll immediately off our hand does not seem to "hook". Your driller did a great job, this is about all one could do with this ball!
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the pooh
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: bfreshour on March 18, 2010, 09:16:39 AM: pooh, thank you very much for the information. So would the best 'throw' or line to use with this ball if I don't have a lot of revs by to throw the twig at a low speed?

I trust my driller a lot, she's a former pro and knows her stuff...

You say speed would make the ball appear to hook, do you mean revs? Or perhaps both?
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: JohnP on March 18, 2010, 09:29:32 AM: Did your driller confirm the cg location with her dodo scale, and what were the final static weights? I agree that if the cg location was correct she did about all she could with it. What is the layout, especially pin to PAP distance? If it's rolling too early some polish might help it, and depending on the static weights a properly located balance hole might also help it. -- JohnP
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: the pooh on March 18, 2010, 09:40:18 AM: I would think that you would definitely want to play just inside the oil line. Speed revs and side roll will get the ball to push a bit farther down the lane and save some of the hook for the back. Remember, this layout is immediate forward roll. A ball normally goes through three distinct phases: skid,hook,roll. This layout tends to diminish the first two phases and enhances the last. Surface is another very important factor to consider. This ball with this layout may be better with less surface. i.e.: 4000 Abralon or some degree of polish. Especially if, as a beginner, you don''t have a lot of revs or a strong release. Also, at your stage of development, you may be getting too much into the "magic" of layouts. Some good instruction or lessons are more important for you at this time. Once you have a consistent, proper release and average say, 170 and up, layout starts to become more critical.
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the pooh

Edited on 3/18/2010 9:42 AM

Edited on 3/18/2010 9:52 AM

Edited on 3/18/2010 10:01 AM
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: bfreshour on March 18, 2010, 09:44:07 AM: JohnP, I''m pretty sure she used her scale, and I don''t have the static weights, I''d have to ask her. I didn''t have a PAP when she drilled it, and still don''t really have one as I''m still really inconsistent on my throws and trying to find my style (new bowler).

pooh, thanks. So this ball isn''t ever going to FLIP over when it hits the backend and crush the pocket so it needs a smooth arc and trajectory into the pocket (that''s what I''m getting from what you are saying, please correct me if I''m wrong).

Also, by just inside the oil line do you mean like the 15, out to the 10 or 8?

I hope to learn more about all this before I get my next ball, and hopefully have a PAP that''s consistent that can be used for my drilling.

You guys are a wealth of information.

Edited on 3/18/2010 9:45 AM
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: the pooh on March 18, 2010, 09:57:46 AM: The oil line is wherever the laneman puts it. Usually in the area of the ten board, but I've seen it at two and at 35 on played out lanes. Also it moves. Finding it is called the art of "reading" lanes. This is why lessons are so important. there is this and so many more things for you to learn.
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the pooh
Title: Re: Expected Reaction?
Post by: Guined on March 18, 2010, 10:49:48 AM: There could be a couple of things that could make this an X-Out. Ebonite wants to keep the CG within 1 1/2" of the Pin to MB line. Also it sounds like it has the Columbia CG Logo instead of the Ebonite CG Logo.

All the logos are Hot stamped in the ball so it probably got through before the stamp was changed. At the Track Training camp a couple of years ago I saw a Kinetic Energy with a Hammer MB logo on it.

With the way your ball looks like it is drilled there could be limitations to how it could be drilled. with Mass Bias and CG location and ability to place a weight hole and give you a drilling that doesn't roll at your toes. which kind of sounds like is happening.

I do agree with Dizzy that a High Performance ball may not be the best choice for a begining bowler but heck if it's free what can you say.

The last thing that has me concerned is your ball driller say she didn't know what kinds of reaction your going to get. I would have concerns about going there again.

Ball fitting, layout, and drilling is both Art and Science. There is so much info and training available to ball drillers that should be able really match up a bowlers style with a ball and to the condition they are bowling on.

I hope she at least got your PAP and drilled from that.

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Rick Guined

Owner/Operator: New Millennium Proshop: http://s239.photobucket.com/albums/ff183/Guined/
Vise PBA Regional Staff Player
IBPSIA Certified Technician
USBC Bronze Certified Instructor
www.viseinserts.com