Author Topic: I need some help for a guy in my league. (Read 3112 times)

chitown · « **on:** December 28, 2008, 11:24:04 AM »

I need some help for a guy that bowls in my league. He has a unique hand release. Im not sure of his exact PAP but it's close to 3". He has A LOT of axis tilt and from what I can see his rotation is around 70 to 80 degrees.

Most of his equipment was drilled by a pro shop guy that obviously never checked his pap. All of his equipment at the time had the pin right of the ring (he's a right hander). I told him he should use a driller that will use layouts based off his PAP numbers. He agreed and went to the driller who owns a pro shop in the house we bowl league. This driller also bowls in our league.

Too make a long story some what short, the new ball driller used his PAP to layout a new ball this guy purchased. He ended up buying a CELL. The PIN on his CELL is below and left of his middle finger. This ball was obviously laid out based off his PAP.

Now here's the problem and the reason for this post. The guy on my league has two bowling balls (BITE, CELL). The BITE was the last ball he had drilled by the old driller and the CELL is drilled by the pro shop guy in our league. The BITE has the pin right of his ring and a little below and the CELL has the pin below and left of middle finger.

Now he get's a pretty good reaction with the BITE but his CELL hooks less. I was kind of baffled by this because the CELL has the correct pin to PAP distance and the BITE's pin is about 1" from his pap. How can his BITE out hook his CELL based on those pin locations?

He wants to buy a new ball because he's disappointed in the CELL. I told him that not all bowling balls work well for all bowlers. I said their's a lot of factors involved when it comes to finding a ball that matches up for ones game.

I would like to give him some suggestions on a new ball and layout. This is where I need your guys help.

1. What is a good layout for a guy that has faster ball speed, really low track, a lot of ball tilt and rotation?

2. What specific ball would be a good fit for him to get a lot of movement on heavier oil?

keeones23 · « **Reply #1 on:** December 28, 2008, 07:37:59 PM »

The guy that drills my balls had also drilled up a cell for himself after he drilled a lot of them for other customers, satisfied customers, and a buddy of his who's ball he had tossed and liked. After he drilled himself one it didn't hook almost at all. Just his luck the storm rep was coming to the shop and he demonstrated to him what his ball wasn't doing and he was just told that he got a bad one. More than likely came from a bad batch.

chitown · « **Reply #2 on:** December 28, 2008, 07:43:34 PM »

quote:
The guy that drills my balls had also drilled up a cell for himself after he drilled a lot of them for other customers, satisfied customers, and a buddy of his who's ball he had tossed and liked. After he drilled himself one it didn't hook almost at all. Just his luck the storm rep was coming to the shop and he demonstrated to him what his ball wasn't doing and he was just told that he got a bad one. More than likely came from a bad batch.

I will mention that to him and tell him to talk with the pro shop guy about it.

I was thinking that the ball just may not match up well with his unique ball roll which is a lot of tilt and high degree axis rotation.

sunsetlefty · « **Reply #3 on:** December 28, 2008, 08:07:07 PM »

chitown,

Remember the secondary angle (the angle to the VAL). This determines response to friction. Most low pin layouts feature a large secondary angle. So, the ball starts early, but doesn't have the backend motion. Now, this is a generic statement, because it is certainly possible to combine a low pin placement with a small VAL angle. It takes a lot of layout work!

The Cell you described has a low pin layout with a large secondary angle.

The Bite you described has a mid pin layout with a smaller secondary angle.

--------------------
Gary Palma
X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
PBA Member
2008 Hammer Staff Member

JohnP · « **Reply #4 on:** December 29, 2008, 09:29:51 AM »

Before you give up on the Cell, try taking the cover down to about 220 grit. If that starts up too early, raise the grit in steps until he likes the reaction. With his axis tilt and rotation he needs a cover that will grab hard when it hits the end of the pattern. -- JohnP

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #5 on:** December 29, 2008, 09:35:43 AM »

What I've seen from bowlers with a lot of tilt who tend to kind of spin the ball is that they need the ball to be drilled for early roll and a quick response to friction. Short pin to PAP distances encourage the ball to pick up early when the high axis tilt is trying to delay reaction, so it all kind of balances out.

leftyinsnellville · « **Reply #6 on:** December 29, 2008, 09:46:21 AM »

Given that the vast majority of reaction (a/k/a "hook") is due to the coverstock and not core dynamics or layout, and given that at 2000 abralon the coverstock on the Bite, in my experience, is more aggressive than the Cell's coverstock, and factoring in that we have several unknowns (the distance of the pin from pap, mb location, etc.), I am not one bit surprised the Bite outhooks the Cell. If he wants a ball that covers a greater number of boards than the Bite, he'll probably need to look at particle coverstocks (which will arc more than skid/snap.)

--------------------
220...221...whatever it takes.

sunsetlefty · « **Reply #7 on:** December 29, 2008, 10:25:45 AM »

quote:
What I've seen from bowlers with a lot of tilt who tend to kind of spin the ball is that they need the ball to be drilled for early roll and a quick response to friction. Short pin to PAP distances encourage the ball to pick up early when the high axis tilt is trying to delay reaction, so it all kind of balances out.

Dan hit the nail on the head.

I see this also for bowlers with a lot of tilt. Early roll drillings with shorter Pin to PAP distances, smaller primary angles, and smaller secondary (VAL) angles help this kind of bowler.
--------------------
Gary Palma
X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
PBA Member
2008 Hammer Staff Member

SleepOnIce · « **Reply #8 on:** December 29, 2008, 01:23:16 PM »

quote:
The guy that drills my balls had also drilled up a cell for himself after he drilled a lot of them for other customers, satisfied customers, and a buddy of his who's ball he had tossed and liked. After he drilled himself one it didn't hook almost at all. Just his luck the storm rep was coming to the shop and he demonstrated to him what his ball wasn't doing and he was just told that he got a bad one. More than likely came from a bad batch.

Is Travis your ball driller (Century Bowl)? If not, he's my driller and told me the exact same thing. Schlemer(sp?) stopped by for the junior gold, Trav told him the story schlemer sent him a new Cell and another ball (I wanna say the Dimension, but I forgot).

Storm sounds like a great company, considering jumping to their stuff.
--------------------
BLARGH

Edited on 12/29/2008 2:24 PM

chitown · « **Reply #9 on:** December 29, 2008, 02:50:22 PM »

quote:
Before you give up on the Cell, try taking the cover down to about 220 grit. If that starts up too early, raise the grit in steps until he likes the reaction. With his axis tilt and rotation he needs a cover that will grab hard when it hits the end of the pattern. -- JohnP

John, I will mention that too him. I also agree that he shouldn't give up on the ball yet. However, I do feel he needs to use different layouts in the future to help the ball loose tilt and rotation quicker.

chitown · « **Reply #10 on:** December 29, 2008, 02:50:49 PM »

quote:
What I've seen from bowlers with a lot of tilt who tend to kind of spin the ball is that they need the ball to be drilled for early roll and a quick response to friction. Short pin to PAP distances encourage the ball to pick up early when the high axis tilt is trying to delay reaction, so it all kind of balances out.

Agree!

chitown · « **Reply #11 on:** December 29, 2008, 02:54:12 PM »

quote:
quote:
What I've seen from bowlers with a lot of tilt who tend to kind of spin the ball is that they need the ball to be drilled for early roll and a quick response to friction. Short pin to PAP distances encourage the ball to pick up early when the high axis tilt is trying to delay reaction, so it all kind of balances out.

Dan hit the nail on the head.

I see this also for bowlers with a lot of tilt. Early roll drillings with shorter Pin to PAP distances, smaller primary angles, and smaller secondary (VAL) angles help this kind of bowler.
--------------------
Gary Palma
X-act Reaction pro shop at Ideal Lanes
PBA Member
2008 Hammer Staff Member

I will let the guy no about your guys suggestions. I appreciate the help.

Author Topic: I need some help for a guy in my league. (Read 3112 times)

chitown

I need some help for a guy in my league.

keeones23

Re: I need some help for a guy in my league.

chitown

Re: I need some help for a guy in my league.

sunsetlefty

Re: I need some help for a guy in my league.

JohnP

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Dan Belcher

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leftyinsnellville

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sunsetlefty

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SleepOnIce

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chitown

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chitown

Re: I need some help for a guy in my league.

chitown

Re: I need some help for a guy in my league.