Post by: htotheizzo3561 on January 21, 2012, 12:57:41 AM
I have been using vacu inserts for years but am noticing that several of the top players in the area are now going to clean finger holes, for a more consistent feel.
Right now my fingers are 1/2 pitched left/right 0 up and down with a 1/4 inch bridge.
Should I try to copy this exact layout when switching to clean holes?
thanks
Yo Yo Yo Mo Fo
Post by: Impending Doom on January 21, 2012, 09:40:42 AM
*Inventor of the FIBJAM*
The sky is falling
The end is near
The final warning
The sun disappears.
My arsenal
Post by: htotheizzo3561 on January 21, 2012, 09:52:13 AM
thats the thing, I drill out of my friend's basement who bought some pro shop equipment.
Would adjusting the span, going shorter make it more comfortable?
I drilled one ball with clean fingers matcing my current specs and it became uncomfortable after a few games. This may be due to the new feel or is it because i should be increasing the bridge/other adjustements?
thanks again
Yo Yo Yo Mo Fo
Post by: DON DRAPER on January 21, 2012, 10:29:13 AM
Post by: Impending Doom on January 21, 2012, 10:59:10 AM
*Inventor of the FIBJAM*
The sky is falling
The end is near
The final warning
The sun disappears.
My arsenal
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on January 21, 2012, 11:32:32 AM
Post by: Impending Doom on January 21, 2012, 12:14:17 PM
Tweak, change, experiment, observe. I know a lot of high average guys that don't use grips around Chicago. I know lots of guys that do use grips. Is going gripless going to make you a Mike Nape? Probably not. Is continuing to use grips going to make you a Gregg Zicha? Probably not. But do right by yourself and try a change. Nothing is set in stone.
*Inventor of the FIBJAM*
The sky is falling
The end is near
The final warning
The sun disappears.
My arsenal
Post by: RayRay310 on January 21, 2012, 12:32:16 PM
Post by: Stan on January 21, 2012, 12:35:59 PM
I've never used inserts. One thing to consider is that inserts give you a tacky feel. They keep you fingers securely in the ball. With no inserts, you will get the feeling that your fingers are coming out faster.
I would try your normal pitches first and see how it affects your release. Bowl like this for a while and then make any necessary adjustments.
I have been in the Pro Shop business for over 35 years. Sometimes its too easy to try new ideas. My point is, if you have a solid release right now, why try to mess it up. If you feel your release could be better, then try something different. Either way, good luck.
Post by: charlest on January 21, 2012, 12:41:29 PM
I think that change for the sake of change is counterproductive. If the OP has a problems with the inserts, seeking an alternative is always the safe path. If he just wants to try something different, there's no harm in that, as long as he recognizes the goal he is pursuing.
Since my fingers swell & shrink a lot, inserts were a godsend to me. It enabled me to stop playing with lots of little tiny pieces of white tape to adjust the size of the finger holes. Just to see if I was missing something, I tried a ball with no finger inserts about 18 months ago. It turned into the same debacle as I described above. With inserts I just put in or remove small plastic or cardboard pre-cut pieces between the insert and the back of the hole, as needed.
I encounter no more inconsistency with inserts than I did with drilled holes, when I did use them. In fact, they're more consistent since I use the same brand and type in resin, urethane and polyester coverstocks, which all feel differently without the inserts..
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: htotheizzo3561 on January 21, 2012, 12:42:49 PM
Sounds like its 6 of 1 half dozen of the other. the only issue with grips that i find is the wearability. Its defenatly not the same feel from throwing the ball with 1 game used on the grips to 25 games bowled with em. This is where i'm looking for someting that will be consistent from game to game.
Change in grips is not going to turn you into a great player like Nape or Zicha, but usually better bowlers have better ideas, hence i'm thinking about changing.
Yo Yo Yo Mo Fo
Post by: htotheizzo3561 on January 21, 2012, 12:50:22 PM
Charlest, you hit the nail on the head!
Would you think that clean holes would promote more of a no grab release however? I do find myself at times using excessive grip pressure which causes hang ups in the ball.
Yo Yo Yo Mo Fo
Post by: charlest on January 21, 2012, 01:52:09 PM
That excessive grip pressure may be what's wearing out your grips so quickly AND changing their feel. Also cleaning them out every so often with alcohol may help. You don't need to put a death's grip on them. Mine last a LOT longer than 25 games and I use the Contour Super-Soft yellow ones.
Since I have no problem with the grips, I suspect that clean holes are not your problem. I believe your confidence in them is more of a problem. It may take more of a mental adjustment. Maybe you need to try another grip for a firmer feeling material. Some are much firmer than others, even within the same brand, I'd suggest trying a different brand before you try no grips at all.
Make small changes first, then larger ones if the small ones don't work out.
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on January 21, 2012, 02:17:19 PM
If you hit up on the ball, you hit up on the ball. The grip/no grip issue will not change the hitting up on the ball. People who have clean releases have that because they just have very good technique.
I find most people who do not use inserts to just be too lazy or cheap to replace the inserts, so they drill it no inserts.
Some people do like the sharper holes and have the type of skin to deal with that.
Your going to start to have to keep tape with you as well. Since the holes do not "give" and your fingers will enlarge and shrink due to many factors. You will probably need to tape the holes up. You also might find during some stretches of weather (cold) that the ball becomes very slick to hold onto. Here again tape with texture will he helpful.
If you have grip issues and you try to use no finger inserts and you do not bevel the holes enough your going to tear your fingers up quickly. Grip pressure needs to be addressed before any changes are made.
There are very top notch players who use inserts and some who do not use inserts. Changing for the sake of seeing some bowlers that do something else is not always the best idea.
Two players that come to mind. Chris Barnes and Pete Weber. No grip pressure at all, and they use inserts. Top notch players. Some other top notch players use no grips, Norm Duke for instance. Bowlers try to be somebody they are not, instead of being just themselves. Work with the feel that is best for you.
Normally if somebody comes to me and they want to try this, I try my best to talk them out of it. Sometimes I refuse to drill it like that. I'm not in business, so my only goal is to provide solutions that work best for the bowler. The answer "Well, just because I want to" or "Well, that other guy does that" doesn't fly with me. I try to stay away from excessive "playing around" when it comes to the bowlers grip. This leads bowlers into a whole lot of problems once they start experimenting with grip.
If your span is correct, and pitches are correct you will not need to change anything in your grip when going from inserts to no inserts. Since you talking about pitch changes and such, this leads me to believe your going to start to get into the "experimenting" phase. Find a good pro shop and have them evaluate your fit before the experimenting.
Edited by Xx 12 X 300 xX on 1/21/2012 at 3:45 PM
Post by: RayRay310 on January 21, 2012, 02:48:08 PM
Post by: Xx 12 X 300 xX on January 21, 2012, 02:51:25 PM
Post by: charlest on January 21, 2012, 08:30:57 PM
I use the largest size my fingers get, currently 25/32" and 3/4". On these cold winter mornings, my fingers are still cold and smaller than they will be by the middle of the first game + warm-ups. So I stick the shims behind the inserts to start the evening. I remove them as my fingers get warmer and the friction makes them larger.
Recently I've done a lot of writing and the writing callus on my middle finger got larger and required me to open up the hole a little bit with sandpaper and re-install the inserts. So if your inserts are installed with just 2 drops of glue, they're easier to remove with a 1/8" flat blade screwdriver, and reglue. I put the 2 drops on the sides. And have my driller do the same on initial installation.
To install and remove shims, just stick the same screwdriver between the back of the insert and the back of the hole, spread it slightly and put in however many shims are needed at that time. Shims can be cut from old business cards or I have also used these Adjust-a-Grips from Milo's Sports Products: http://www.milosports.com/Home_Page.html
"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: htotheizzo3561 on January 23, 2012, 06:34:54 AM
I drilled up a test fit for clean holes,
decreased my span by 1/16 on each finger and put 1/8 reverse on the fingers and only 1/4 reverse on my thumb as compared to 1/2. While i'll be throwing it toinght, from just a couple practice releases in the house last night this felt very comfortable.
Yo Yo Yo Mo Fo
Post by: kidlost2000 on January 23, 2012, 06:51:52 AM
I went away from inserts in 2002 because of the inconsistent feel from ball to ball. Since then I've been very pleased. I prefer it over inserts.
Now by clean do you mean no.very little bevel or sanding of the edges? Regional player did that here for a while before changing back to inserts then to no inserts and sanded edges. When bowling bad sometimes anything sounds like a good idea I guess.
I sand mine to get a smooth edge and use tape as needed on the back side to deal with any swelling or shrinking but really has never been an issue. I really didn't have any issues with finger pain or any other problems after going away from inserts. For me the feel is way better, more consistent and in the end what I prefer.
"1 of 1."
Post by: gergy22 on January 24, 2012, 08:12:30 AM
Here is what I can offer on the subject. I went from grips to finger tip not inserts about 8 years ago. Won't ever go back. I prefer the clean feel coming out of the ball. I believe most people think grips help with gaining revolutions, mine was the opposite. That being said, comfort is to each his own, I find my way more comfortable, you may not. Some of those things are solely based on the desires of the bowler and nobody can tell you this is the right way or that. I don't have problems with swelling in my fingers, don't know if that is cause of how clean I clear the ball or how my holes are drilled. My dad also recently switched after being with every kind of insert imaginable including vacu. He has greatly improved his game and less pain in his wrist. Now span, fit and a hundred other factors can lead to all this. Trial and error is the best way to find something you like and that works for you.
Most importantly This is how I drill my fingers to ensure ball to ball feels the same. If you look at your finger you will notice that it may be wider than it is thick. Mine is, not everyone has this. So what I did was oval my fingers. My middle finger for example. I measured width and thickness with a caliper. Then subtract the two numbers. Say for the sake of conversation width is 1/2 inch and thickness is 3/8 inch. That leaves a difference of 1/8 inch. In digital numbers that is .125. Now divide that by 3 and you get .042 rounded to 3 spots. To drill it, use the bit that matches your smallest reading in this case, 3/8. Drill your first hole nearest your bridge, then take 3 swipes each time moving .042 to the left. This works best on a press that has the ability to track movements by tenths and hundreths of an inch. 3 swipes at .042 will give you a total of .125 which is your width. Now your hole is the exact width and thickness of your finger. If you do this properly, every ball will fit the same. I think the reason I don't get swelling on my fingers is because all of my finger holes fit so perfect for me. I believe for my ring finger I use 5/8 lateral pitch to start with and then drill first hole in by the bridge and drill my extra swipes on the right side of the finger hole moving away from the bridge. That process seems a lot more confusing written down than it is watching it done. I just drilled out 5 balls last week and they took 5 minutes each to do the fingers. Call me and I can answer any questions you may have about it. I can also send you pictures of what mine look like to help visualize it. Ben Goergen 701-426-2964
Everyone on here has an opinion as to what works, what doesn't, what is crazy and whether or not you are crazy. But they don't know you, your game, or your body so they really don't know much. I just gave you my experience with this change and how I do it. Your results will vary I am sure. Try stuff out and see what works. Hope this helps.