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Author Topic: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements  (Read 11113 times)

LiquidHero

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Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« on: April 15, 2008, 10:48:10 AM »
I am not sure if this has been discussed or not but here is a link to the Morich website that explains Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements. Just wondering if anyone has thoughts or comments on this.
http://morichbowling.com/MosCorner/GradientLineBalanceHole/GradientLineBalanceHole.htm
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strikealot

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #16 on: April 23, 2008, 01:04:37 PM »
quote:
Since people want to talk about data, I will provide data. I would like people to guess which one has the P1 hole and which one has the P4 hole.

RG/Total Diff/I-Diff
2.507/0.070/0.031
2.518/0.050/0.017



since the obvious answer would be P4 then P1...i will say P1 then P4...
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purduepaul

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #17 on: April 23, 2008, 09:51:32 PM »
Correct the first one is the P4 weight hole and the P1 is on the PAP.  Man how I love data.
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Bowlin for Beer

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #18 on: April 24, 2008, 01:45:08 PM »
So, hold on a minute...
What about balance holes drilled above P1 ?
and what about holes that are drilled closer to the finger holes, or farther away from the finger holes ?

What does this do to a ball's reaction ?

Thanks.
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purduepaul

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #19 on: April 24, 2008, 01:49:38 PM »
Holes drilled away from P1 will further reduce total diff and raise the low RG
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T-GOD

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #20 on: April 25, 2008, 01:30:46 AM »
Paul, what about a hole drilled from the pin, through the initial PAP, that is 6 3/4" from the pin..? Won't that raise the numbers the same as with the P4 hole..? Because, both holes are roughly 6 3/4" from the pin.

Does any hole, no matter what side of the grip the hole is on, that is 6 3/4" from the pin give you the same numbers..? =:^D
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purduepaul

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #21 on: April 25, 2008, 06:44:55 AM »
T-god, yes and no, Yes on a symmetrical ball not quite on a assymetrical.

The reason why is on an assymetrical, you will actually move the low RG around a bit depending on where you put the hole and on a symmetrical the farther away you put the hole on the 6 3/4" line.  The more you will move the high RG towards the hole.

Because of the high or low rg movement, it will affect the measurements on total diff  and intermediate differential depending on where you put the hole.
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T-GOD

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #22 on: April 26, 2008, 08:46:10 PM »
Paul, ok, then based on what you've just said, any hole on a symmetrical ball that is 6 3/4" from the pin, will change rg, diff. and intermediate diff. numbers the same way. Correct..?

Looking at Mo's corner and his Gradient Line Numbers for a P4 hole, it states that the Int Diff. and Total Diff. numbers both increase significantly as compared to the ball with no hole or even a P1(axis) hole.

Still talking about a symmetrical core, are we to deduce that because the numbers are higher, you're increasing dynamics, and that you're going to get a stronger ball reaction..?

And if so, a stronger reaction where on the lane..? =:^D
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purduepaul

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #23 on: April 27, 2008, 10:10:36 AM »
Any hole 6 3/4" away from the pin will significantly increase t diff, i diff and lower the low rg.  With that being said depending on where the hole is will change where the High RG is located.  The high RG will want to migrate towards the hole.  Which will change the drilling angle of the layout.  While a Hole on the PAP on a symmetrical ball will raise the Low RG and low the t diff and i diff slightly depending on the size and depth of the hole.

So your conclusion earlier is dead wrong and the opposite of what happens.  The P1 holed ball will have a later breakpoint and the P4 holed ball will have an earlier breakpoint.

Paul
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T-GOD

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2008, 09:09:54 PM »
Paul, thanks for your reply. But...
quote:
So your conclusion earlier is dead wrong and the opposite of what happens. The P1 holed ball will have a later breakpoint and the P4 holed ball will have an earlier breakpoint.
I think you mean P1 holes will have a later transition off the breakpoint. P4 holes will have a earlier transition of break off the dry. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
quote:
With that being said depending on where the hole is will change where the High RG is located. The high RG will want to migrate towards the hole. Which will change the drilling angle of the layout.
I didn't know the location of the High Rg could change. Please explain this to me if you will. If it migrates towards the hole, where is it to begin with..?  
quote:
Any hole 6 3/4" away from the pin will significantly increase t diff, i diff and lower the low rg.
If a hole is drilled anywhere on a 360 degree circle, 6 3/4" from the pin, will the Total Diff., the Int. Diff., as well as the RG numbers come out to be the same if drilled any where on the circle..? =:^D





Edited on 4/27/2008 9:15 PM
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purduepaul

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #25 on: April 28, 2008, 06:50:50 AM »
T-God,

The P1 will have a later 1st transition, a later breakpoint and a later second transition point.  

I will explain this once again to you, on a symmetrical ball the high RG will migrate towards the hole, after drilling the high RG spot will be somewhere by the thumb.  The reason this happens is after you drill a symmetrical ball, it will have a PSA and it will move depending on the size, depth, and positon of the weight hole.  If you would like to learn more call Bill Supper and sign up for the IBPSIA Emerging Concepts Class at Bowl Expo.  

any hole 6 3/4" away will have approx the same values, in low rg, however the t diff and i diff will be slightly different depending on the placement of the hole.  But where you put the hole in relation to the drilling pattern will affect the drilling angle.  

If you have any data to bring to this discussion I would appreciate it, otherwise you can keep your smiley faces to yourself
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T-GOD

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #26 on: May 01, 2008, 04:22:04 PM »
Purdue,
quote:
If you have any data to bring to this discussion I would appreciate it, otherwise you can keep your smiley faces to yourself
Why are you getting nasty with me..? I'm only trying to decipher what you're saying.  My first question was...
quote:
Does any hole, no matter what side of the grip the hole is on, that is 6 3/4" from the pin give you the same numbers..? =:^D
Your answer was...
quote:
T-god, yes and no, Yes on a symmetrical ball not quite on a asymmetrical.
You answered yes for a symmetrical ball. Then I asked...
quote:
ok, then based on what you've just said, any hole on a symmetrical ball that is 6 3/4" from the pin, will change rg, diff. and intermediate diff. numbers the same way. Correct..?
quote:
Any hole 6 3/4" away from the pin will significantly increase t diff, i diff and lower the low rg.
With that being said, when you place a hole 6 3/4" @ 12:00 to the pin vs. 6:00 to the pin(marked mas bias), vs. 9:00 to the pin vs. 3:00 to the pin all the RG and diff. numbers will be virtually the same. They will, as you've stated...
quote:
significantly increase t diff, i diff and lower the low rg
Now, what I'm saying is that with these 4 different hole placements, all the diff. numbers will change the same way(increase), but, you're ball reaction will not be the same..!! So, these numbers are misleading..!!

Second, you're misleading us because of the way you and Mo are stating the RG is getting lower or higher with P1 or P4 hole placements. Aren't you supposed to measure the RG about the core, from top to bottom..? Therefore, the P4 hole will raise the RG, not lower it as Mo and you have both stated.

You are calculating the RG from the initial axis point. This is very misleading..!!

Both the P1 and the P4 holes are on your axis of rotation, only at different points on the lane. On your initial axis point, you're saying the P1 hole raises the RG. This is true in the beginning of the lane, if you're measuring RG from your axis point. But now, if you are, the P4 hole also raises your RG, because it is also on your axis point(PAP). It's just that it is on your PAP at the end of the lane and not in the beginning.

So, where are you calculating these numbers from..?

You see how confusing this all is..?

This is why the RG is supposed to be calculated from the core, top to bottom. Technically speaking, in calculating the RG of the core, the RG is raised with the P4 hole and lowered with the P1 hole.
quote:
So your conclusion earlier is dead wrong and the opposite of what happens.
How's my smiley face looking now..? =:^D

Edited on 5/1/2008 4:35 PM
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strikealot

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #27 on: May 01, 2008, 04:30:25 PM »
i love the debates with t-god and others involved...i actually learn something..i learn that i can get more confused  than before the discussion started..oh here my smiley face is below...
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purduepaul

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #28 on: May 02, 2008, 06:40:14 AM »
T-God, You bring zero data to this discussion, so I'm going to explain this slowly so it might sink into your head.  I am off to USBC Convention this week, so I'm not going to check this but your master will be at headquarters for testing.  After I explain this to him, he can explain how to take an RG to you.

Now, what I'm saying is that with these 4 different hole placements, all the diff. numbers will change the same way(increase), but, you're ball reaction will not be the same..!! So, these numbers are misleading..!!
Second, you're misleading us because of the way you and Mo are stating the RG is getting lower or higher with P1 or P4 hole placements. Aren't you supposed to measure the RG about the core, from top to bottom..? Therefore, the P4 hole will raise the RG, not lower it as Mo and you have both stated.

According to the physics of the core, the high RG axis will ALWAYS be 6 3/4" away from the low RG.  Once you put holes in the ball, you can measure the high RG by use of a deTerminator.  After this spot is marked.  You measure 6 3/4" away from that and take the RGs about this point and perpendicular to that spot but 1" away from that in either direction because you have to make sure its the low RG on the ball.  If you just measure it using the pin, the measurements will NOT be accurate.  

You are calculating the RG from the initial axis point. This is very misleading..!!
No I am not measuring the RG about the PAP.  That measurement is different.  There is only one high RG on any drilled ball.


Both the P1 and the P4 holes are on your axis of rotation, only at different points on the lane. On your initial axis point, you're saying the P1 hole raises the RG. This is true in the beginning of the lane, if you're measuring RG from your axis point. But now, if you are, the P4 hole also raises your RG, because it is also on your axis point(PAP). It's just that it is on your PAP at the end of the lane and not in the beginning.

Only the P1 hole is on my PAP or axis of rotation, the P4 hole is next to the thumb so unless my PAP is 3/4" over by 3" down.  P4 is not on my axis of rotation or my PAP.  In fact my PAP is 4 5/8" over by 5/8"
up

Your smiley face still doesn't impress me, since you bring ZERO data to this discussion and do not understand how to take a RG reading.


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T-GOD

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #29 on: May 02, 2008, 10:41:52 AM »
Purdue, I guess you'll get this when you get this... I can't believe you're really saying this.  
quote:
Only the P1 hole is on my PAP or axis of rotation, the P4 hole is next to the thumb so unless my PAP is 3/4" over by 3" down. P4 is not on my axis of rotation or my PAP. In fact my PAP is 4 5/8" over by 5/8" up
The P4 hole is on the PSA. Don't you know what the PSA is..?  
quote:
 Preferred Spin Axis (PSA).
As the ball flares, your PAP changes, so there are different axis points around the ball as it travels down the lane. The preferred spin axis is the final axis of rotation when the ball has flared out. It's your final PAP..!!

You must be having a bad day, becuase I know you know this.
quote:
unless my PAP is 3/4" over by 3" down. P4 is not on my axis of rotation or my PAP.
At the end of the lane, with all the flaring of the ball, your PAP is near the thumb hole and yes, at that point, your PAP will be very close to 3/4" over and 3" down.

I'm sorry that I don't have any hard data to hand you. But, my post should suffice. =:^D


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J_Mac

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Re: Gradient Line Balance Hole Placements
« Reply #30 on: May 02, 2008, 10:51:23 AM »
It looks like someone needs to specify initial axis of rotation as PAP and someone else needs to specify a term other than PAP for what they are referring to.


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