Post by: LiquidHero on April 15, 2008, 10:48:10 AM
http://morichbowling.com/MosCorner/GradientLineBalanceHole/GradientLineBalanceHole.htm
Post by: fluff33 on April 15, 2008, 07:09:59 PM
Post by: LiquidHero on April 21, 2008, 08:57:14 PM
Post by: JohnP on April 22, 2008, 11:36:27 AM
Post by: T-GOD on April 22, 2008, 04:29:25 PM
quote:
So what's the bottom line with all of these numbers? P1 placements reduce the dynamics of the ball by almost 20%. P2 placements are so minute in changing the dynamics that its almost the same as if the hole weren't drilled. And the need for a P2 if nothing changes -- to keep side weight within USBC regulations! P3 placements increase ball dynamics by 20% and P4 placements increase ball dynamics by 40%!
Hmmm so before we go much further, can you see how you might be able to adjust a bowler's preferred ball so that it can behave differently without much change required of the bowler?
As you can see, Mo doesn't say what ball reaction you're going to get with these holes, just that the DYNAMICS will be lower or higher as you move from P1 to P4. What does this mean..?
As you move from P1 to P4, the ending side weight increases as well as the finger weight. Based on the principle of statics alone, the ball should go longer with more backend, as you move from P1 to P4 with your balance hole, if the ball isn't going too long already.
P1 holes will make the ball roll earlier, which can make the ball hook more on an oily lane if the ball is going too long to begin with. P4 holes will make the ball go longer before hooking. It's not rocket science. =:^D
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 04:43:16 PM
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Post by: khamûl on April 22, 2008, 05:56:53 PM
quote:
As you can see, Mo doesn't say what ball reaction you're going to get with these holes, just that the DYNAMICS will be lower or higher as you move from P1 to P4. What does this mean..?
As you move from P1 to P4, the ending side weight increases as well as the finger weight. Based on the principle of statics alone, the ball should go longer with more backend, as you move from P1 to P4 with your balance hole, if the ball isn't going too long already.
P1 holes will make the ball roll earlier, which can make the ball hook more on an oily lane if the ball is going too long to begin with. P4 holes will make the ball go longer before hooking. It's not rocket science. =:^D
lol...
but they generally also decrease precious top weight... what do we do then?!?!?!?
p1 holes tend to delay overall ball reaction by raising the rg of the ball at its initial axis point (as well as raising overall average rg), reducing differential and potential friction.
compared to position 1 holes, p3 and p4 holes will not increase the distance the ball will travel once the ball encounters friction in the pattern.
when using p3 and p4 balance holes the drilled ball will have a higher rg differential, higher intermediate differential and a lower overall average rg. all of these factors play a part in helping the ball to increase the amount of potential friction and react earlier.
/fixedcausemommasaystoplaynice-edit
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good luck and good bowling.
Edited on 4/23/2008 0:18 AM
Post by: strikealot on April 22, 2008, 06:05:00 PM
--------------------
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Post by: T-GOD on April 22, 2008, 07:06:47 PM
khamûl,
quote:I never said P3 and P4 holes increase the length of the balls transition (from oil to dry or when it hits the dry I'm assuming). It increases the length in oil. There's a difference, which obviously you've confused the two. =:^D
p3 and p4 holes most definitely do not increase the "length" of the balls transition,
Edited on 4/22/2008 7:08 PM
Post by: khamûl on April 23, 2008, 12:42:04 AM
quote:
It increases the length in oil.
actually, a hole in a position that increases core dynamics (p3 or p4) will shorten the length of time the ball takes to turn translational energy into rotational. the ball will slow down and rev up earlier due to the increase in overall rg differential and decrease in average rg. it will also change direction sooner and stronger as the ball will lose rotation angle quicker (lower rg) in the pattern.
so no confusion, depending on the friction relationship between the coverstock and lane environment, this could happen in the oil pattern, in the buff, on the dry, carrydown... wherever.
/deleterantbeforeeditthistime
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good luck and good bowling.
Post by: purduepaul on April 23, 2008, 07:53:35 AM
As you move from P1 to P4, the ending side weight increases as well as the finger weight. Based on the principle of statics alone, the ball should go longer with more backend, as you move from P1 to P4 with your balance hole, if the ball isn't going too long already.
P1 holes will make the ball roll earlier, which can make the ball hook more on an oily lane if the ball is going too long to begin with. P4 holes will make the ball go longer before hooking. It's not rocket science. =:^D
</i>
Since people want to talk about data, I will provide data. I would like people to guess which one has the P1 hole and which one has the P4 hole.
RG/Total Diff/I-Diff
2.507/0.070/0.031
2.518/0.050/0.017
Both balls were assymetrical to start and drilled the exact same way pre weight hole.
Post by: Strapper_Squared on April 23, 2008, 08:14:52 AM
quote:
As you move from P1 to P4, the ending side weight...
Irrelevant. Lost me... move on.
LOL.
Paul... just a guess
P4
P1
S^2
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Post by: purduepaul on April 23, 2008, 09:32:39 AM
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: JohnP on April 23, 2008, 10:53:52 AM
Post by: dR3w on April 23, 2008, 12:54:15 PM
quote:
ppaul and others -- Do you know if the PSA Mo uses is the marked mass bias or a PSA determined after the ball is drilled? -- JohnP
In the picture, the P4 is right over the marked PSA on the ball, so I would assume that that is the answer.
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dR3w
"I did nothing. I did absolutely nothing, and it was everything I thought it could be. "
Post by: strikealot on April 23, 2008, 01:04:37 PM
quote:
Since people want to talk about data, I will provide data. I would like people to guess which one has the P1 hole and which one has the P4 hole.
RG/Total Diff/I-Diff
2.507/0.070/0.031
2.518/0.050/0.017
since the obvious answer would be P4 then P1...i will say P1 then P4...
--------------------
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Post by: purduepaul on April 23, 2008, 09:51:32 PM
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: Bowlin for Beer on April 24, 2008, 01:45:08 PM
What about balance holes drilled above P1 ?
and what about holes that are drilled closer to the finger holes, or farther away from the finger holes ?
What does this do to a ball's reaction ?
Thanks.
Post by: purduepaul on April 24, 2008, 01:49:38 PM
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: T-GOD on April 25, 2008, 01:30:46 AM
Does any hole, no matter what side of the grip the hole is on, that is 6 3/4" from the pin give you the same numbers..? =:^D
Post by: purduepaul on April 25, 2008, 06:44:55 AM
The reason why is on an assymetrical, you will actually move the low RG around a bit depending on where you put the hole and on a symmetrical the farther away you put the hole on the 6 3/4" line. The more you will move the high RG towards the hole.
Because of the high or low rg movement, it will affect the measurements on total diff and intermediate differential depending on where you put the hole.
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: T-GOD on April 26, 2008, 08:46:10 PM
Looking at Mo's corner and his Gradient Line Numbers for a P4 hole, it states that the Int Diff. and Total Diff. numbers both increase significantly as compared to the ball with no hole or even a P1(axis) hole.
Still talking about a symmetrical core, are we to deduce that because the numbers are higher, you're increasing dynamics, and that you're going to get a stronger ball reaction..?
And if so, a stronger reaction where on the lane..? =:^D
Post by: purduepaul on April 27, 2008, 10:10:36 AM
So your conclusion earlier is dead wrong and the opposite of what happens. The P1 holed ball will have a later breakpoint and the P4 holed ball will have an earlier breakpoint.
Paul
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: T-GOD on April 27, 2008, 09:09:54 PM
quote:I think you mean P1 holes will have a later transition off the breakpoint. P4 holes will have a earlier transition of break off the dry. Please correct me if I'm wrong.
So your conclusion earlier is dead wrong and the opposite of what happens. The P1 holed ball will have a later breakpoint and the P4 holed ball will have an earlier breakpoint.
quote:I didn't know the location of the High Rg could change. Please explain this to me if you will. If it migrates towards the hole, where is it to begin with..?
With that being said depending on where the hole is will change where the High RG is located. The high RG will want to migrate towards the hole. Which will change the drilling angle of the layout.
quote:If a hole is drilled anywhere on a 360 degree circle, 6 3/4" from the pin, will the Total Diff., the Int. Diff., as well as the RG numbers come out to be the same if drilled any where on the circle..? =:^D
Any hole 6 3/4" away from the pin will significantly increase t diff, i diff and lower the low rg.
Edited on 4/27/2008 9:15 PM
Post by: purduepaul on April 28, 2008, 06:50:50 AM
The P1 will have a later 1st transition, a later breakpoint and a later second transition point.
I will explain this once again to you, on a symmetrical ball the high RG will migrate towards the hole, after drilling the high RG spot will be somewhere by the thumb. The reason this happens is after you drill a symmetrical ball, it will have a PSA and it will move depending on the size, depth, and positon of the weight hole. If you would like to learn more call Bill Supper and sign up for the IBPSIA Emerging Concepts Class at Bowl Expo.
any hole 6 3/4" away will have approx the same values, in low rg, however the t diff and i diff will be slightly different depending on the placement of the hole. But where you put the hole in relation to the drilling pattern will affect the drilling angle.
If you have any data to bring to this discussion I would appreciate it, otherwise you can keep your smiley faces to yourself
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: T-GOD on May 01, 2008, 04:22:04 PM
quote:Why are you getting nasty with me..? I'm only trying to decipher what you're saying. My first question was...
If you have any data to bring to this discussion I would appreciate it, otherwise you can keep your smiley faces to yourself
quote:Your answer was...
Does any hole, no matter what side of the grip the hole is on, that is 6 3/4" from the pin give you the same numbers..? =:^D
quote:You answered yes for a symmetrical ball. Then I asked...
T-god, yes and no, Yes on a symmetrical ball not quite on a asymmetrical.
quote:
ok, then based on what you've just said, any hole on a symmetrical ball that is 6 3/4" from the pin, will change rg, diff. and intermediate diff. numbers the same way. Correct..?
quote:With that being said, when you place a hole 6 3/4" @ 12:00 to the pin vs. 6:00 to the pin(marked mas bias), vs. 9:00 to the pin vs. 3:00 to the pin all the RG and diff. numbers will be virtually the same. They will, as you've stated...
Any hole 6 3/4" away from the pin will significantly increase t diff, i diff and lower the low rg.
quote:Now, what I'm saying is that with these 4 different hole placements, all the diff. numbers will change the same way(increase), but, you're ball reaction will not be the same..!! So, these numbers are misleading..!!
significantly increase t diff, i diff and lower the low rg
Second, you're misleading us because of the way you and Mo are stating the RG is getting lower or higher with P1 or P4 hole placements. Aren't you supposed to measure the RG about the core, from top to bottom..? Therefore, the P4 hole will raise the RG, not lower it as Mo and you have both stated.
You are calculating the RG from the initial axis point. This is very misleading..!!
Both the P1 and the P4 holes are on your axis of rotation, only at different points on the lane. On your initial axis point, you're saying the P1 hole raises the RG. This is true in the beginning of the lane, if you're measuring RG from your axis point. But now, if you are, the P4 hole also raises your RG, because it is also on your axis point(PAP). It's just that it is on your PAP at the end of the lane and not in the beginning.
So, where are you calculating these numbers from..?
You see how confusing this all is..?
This is why the RG is supposed to be calculated from the core, top to bottom. Technically speaking, in calculating the RG of the core, the RG is raised with the P4 hole and lowered with the P1 hole.
quote:How's my smiley face looking now..? =:^D
So your conclusion earlier is dead wrong and the opposite of what happens.
Edited on 5/1/2008 4:35 PM
Post by: strikealot on May 01, 2008, 04:30:25 PM
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Post by: purduepaul on May 02, 2008, 06:40:14 AM
Now, what I'm saying is that with these 4 different hole placements, all the diff. numbers will change the same way(increase), but, you're ball reaction will not be the same..!! So, these numbers are misleading..!!
Second, you're misleading us because of the way you and Mo are stating the RG is getting lower or higher with P1 or P4 hole placements. Aren't you supposed to measure the RG about the core, from top to bottom..? Therefore, the P4 hole will raise the RG, not lower it as Mo and you have both stated.
According to the physics of the core, the high RG axis will ALWAYS be 6 3/4" away from the low RG. Once you put holes in the ball, you can measure the high RG by use of a deTerminator. After this spot is marked. You measure 6 3/4" away from that and take the RGs about this point and perpendicular to that spot but 1" away from that in either direction because you have to make sure its the low RG on the ball. If you just measure it using the pin, the measurements will NOT be accurate.
You are calculating the RG from the initial axis point. This is very misleading..!!
No I am not measuring the RG about the PAP. That measurement is different. There is only one high RG on any drilled ball.
Both the P1 and the P4 holes are on your axis of rotation, only at different points on the lane. On your initial axis point, you're saying the P1 hole raises the RG. This is true in the beginning of the lane, if you're measuring RG from your axis point. But now, if you are, the P4 hole also raises your RG, because it is also on your axis point(PAP). It's just that it is on your PAP at the end of the lane and not in the beginning.
Only the P1 hole is on my PAP or axis of rotation, the P4 hole is next to the thumb so unless my PAP is 3/4" over by 3" down. P4 is not on my axis of rotation or my PAP. In fact my PAP is 4 5/8" over by 5/8"
up
Your smiley face still doesn't impress me, since you bring ZERO data to this discussion and do not understand how to take a RG reading.
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: T-GOD on May 02, 2008, 10:41:52 AM
quote:The P4 hole is on the PSA. Don't you know what the PSA is..?
Only the P1 hole is on my PAP or axis of rotation, the P4 hole is next to the thumb so unless my PAP is 3/4" over by 3" down. P4 is not on my axis of rotation or my PAP. In fact my PAP is 4 5/8" over by 5/8" up
quote:As the ball flares, your PAP changes, so there are different axis points around the ball as it travels down the lane. The preferred spin axis is the final axis of rotation when the ball has flared out. It's your final PAP..!!
Preferred Spin Axis (PSA).
You must be having a bad day, becuase I know you know this.
quote:At the end of the lane, with all the flaring of the ball, your PAP is near the thumb hole and yes, at that point, your PAP will be very close to 3/4" over and 3" down.
unless my PAP is 3/4" over by 3" down. P4 is not on my axis of rotation or my PAP.
I'm sorry that I don't have any hard data to hand you. But, my post should suffice. =:^D
Post by: J_Mac on May 02, 2008, 10:51:23 AM
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Post by: purduepaul on May 02, 2008, 11:29:04 AM
I would like to thank you for being two years behind in reading technical papers about bowling.
As the ball flares, your PAP changes, so there are different axis points around the ball as it travels down the lane. The preferred spin axis is the final axis of rotation when the ball has flared out. It's your final PAP..!!
You must be having a bad day, becuase I know you know this.
Dead wrong! Sorry, Your RG about your PAP will not noticeably change as the ball rolls down the lane.
If you doubt this read this article from bowl.com to explain.
http://www.bowl.com/articleView.aspx?i=13372&f=21
So as to provide you with further DATA! I threw the two symmetrical balls that I am doing as the real world check for Mo's gradient line analysis.
Here is the data from those tests.
Hole Location low RG (Rgx) Total Diff i-Diff Top/Bottom Side Finger
P1 2.51 .048 .009 -2.0 -1.375 0 P4 2.493 .076 .023 -1.8125 -1.125 -1.5
Tests were done with Harry on the standard 53' flat pattern 1000 grit abralon. Balls were thrown in an 8 shot ABBABAAB test pattern.
Hole Location intended Path-49'(boards) Breakpoint (ft)
P1 9.79 38.8
P4 12.05 35.4
As you can see by the data, the ball with P4 has almost a three and a half foot earlier breakpoint and covers two more boards than the ball with the P1 hole.
So therefore your conclusions based on your opinion!are wrong. Sorry.
You PAP will not end up on your PSA. A P4 hole is much stronger than a P1 hole, and you can keep saying your opinions what you want but this is the Science Have a great day!
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: T-GOD on May 02, 2008, 02:29:10 PM
quote:
when a bowler releases a ball during delivery, the ball will first begin rotating about what is called his or her positive axis point (PAP). Simply defined, the positive axis point serves as the initial point of rotation. Then, due to the influence of ball properties, bowler attributes, lane conditions and the laws of physics (unstable to stable), new axis of rotation will exist as the ball travels down the lane. This change from the initial point of rotation to each subsequent point of rotation is called "Axis Migration."
quote:
Each flare ring will have an individual axis that the ball has rotated about to create that particular flare ring.
quote:Once the ball flares enough it'll eventually hit the balls PSA. That's what the Determinator does. It spins the ball until it reaches that point. The ball is flaring/rotating until it reaches the PSA. Once it reaches that point, it stays at that point. Meaning, the ball will flare no longer. On the lane, the ball is rolled out and will stop hooking. =:^D
Thus, for each flare ring, there is an axis point.
Edited on 5/2/2008 2:35 PM
Post by: purduepaul on May 02, 2008, 03:08:49 PM
I'll see you on May 12th Richie......
Paul Ridenour
USBC Resarch engineer
paul.ridenour@bowl.com
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"Oops, Looks like we are going to need another timmy." -Dr Lizard, "Dinosaurs"
Post by: T-GOD on May 02, 2008, 07:43:48 PM
quote:The ball may not rotate about the PSA on the lane because the lane is too short, not because the ball is losing energy to friction.
the ball will not rotate around the psa because on the lane the ball is always losing energy to friction.
quote:How can the RG/(low RG) about the PAP be the same throughout the whole 60 ft. of the lane when the PAP is migrating around the ball, to different distances from the pin..?
So while the ball is on the lane all sixty feet of it. The RG about the PAP will approx be the same.
I believe there's something wrong with your data Purdue...
quote:With the P1 hole, it's showing you have 2oz. bottom weight as well as 0 finger weight. With the P4 hole, it shows you have less bottom weight and also 1.5 oz. thumb weight. Now, in order to have less top, the P4 hole has to be to the right of the P1 hole and/or PAP.
So as to provide you with further DATA! I threw the two symmetrical balls that I am doing as the real world check for Mo's gradient line analysis.
Here is the data from those tests.
Hole Location low RG (Rgx) Total Diff i-Diff Top/Bottom Side Finger
P1 2.51 .048 .009 -2.0 -1.375 0 P4 2.493 .076 .023 -1.8125 -1.125 -1.5
And, in order to have -1.5 finger(1 1/2 oz. thumb), the P4 hole and PSA also needs to be above the midline. I've never seen a ball layout with this location of a PSA before. Please explain what kind of drilling/layout you're using and/or how this can be... =:^D