Author Topic: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing.. (Read 8123 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** April 23, 2009, 11:25:12 AM »

Just want to throw this out there and see what people think..
My thinking/theory about the whole pin buffer angle to the VAL lingo.
I always see threads about pin buffer and angle to the VAL and what it does for ball reaction. It isnt the actual Pin buffer distance or angle to the VAL that MAKES the ball do what it does.. it is where the pin is in relation to the finger and thumbholes.... It is the holes that are taking weight out of the core and changing the RG and differential and making the ball react the way it does..
a pin closer to the VAL will remove the majority/average of the weight from the mid section of the core thus raising the RG and allowing the ball to retain more energy for the backend or when it encounters friction....
a lower pin or pin farther from the VAL will have the holes take the majority/average of the weight out of the top of the core thus shortening the overall core and lowering the RG and allowing the ball to rev up sooner and expend it energy sooner...
both of these also change the rg differential but I haven't come to a clear conclusion as to how that affects the reaction in these cases.. I think it has to do with a combo of the pin to pap.. example.. a skid flip layout to me is usually a longer pin to pap 5" plus .. this lowers the flare..and raises the RG already.. now put the pin up close to the VAL allows weight to be taken out of the side of the core...it does increase the diff and the flare but I don't think it is enough to make the ball hook early.. the higher RG overpowers the increase in rg diff and flare that is created.

I lay out my own equipment. When laying out some of my stronger layouts I actually use the thumb hole distance from the pin as a factor in my layouts..
This is basically the same concept as Morich's double thumb layout..
gets you a really strong hooking ball.. at leverage the core is already in an unstable position and at its highest flaring potention.. now when you have a thumb hole 6 3/4 away and a weight hole 6 3/4 away you are taking alot of weight out of the side and thus increasing the RG differential even more and increasing the flare making the ball want to hook more... in this case you are also increasing the RG but at this pin position I think the rg diff and flare overpowers whatever raise in RG was created..

I am not a driller and just a guy trying to learn ball dynamics.. I don't claim to know everything and always looking to learn.. This is just where I am right now in my thinking and everything I have learned seems to support it.

I'm sure some people will strongly disagree. Interested in all replies.

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #16 on:** April 24, 2009, 09:58:11 AM »

quote:
quote:
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..

Thats fine if the ball only has a single axis plane..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

my point is..

how bout this.. pin is at center grip and it is 5 inches from PAP... No holes in the ball.. Throw the ball.. Now you move the pin up above where the fingers would be and still 5 inches from the PAP.. ball still has no holes.. these two balls will roll exactly the same..
If they won't then please explain.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #17 on:** April 24, 2009, 09:59:39 AM »

quote:
my point was that it is the holes that are the THING that is ACTUALLY changing what the ball does.. it isn't this VAL line or position to it that is doing the reaction..

The orientation of the core changing as the core migrates to the stable position is dependent on the VAL since that's dependent on the ball's position as it rotates down the lane. There are three dimensions to consider when thinking of how the core rotates back to a stable position when it flares -- I'm pretty certain you're oversimplifying it by assuming the pin to PAP distance is the only aspect of the core's location and rotation itself that will affect ball roll.

triggerman · « **Reply #18 on:** April 24, 2009, 10:00:08 AM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..

Thats fine if the ball only has a single axis plane..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

my point is..

how bout this.. pin is at center grip and it is 5 inches from PAP... No holes in the ball.. Throw the ball.. Now you move the pin up above where the fingers would be and still 5 inches from the PAP.. ball still has no holes.. these two balls will roll exactly the same..
If they won't then please explain.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

you are changing core orientation, they will roll different pin dictates core orientation, moving it up down, side to side changes the orientations thus changing dynamics of the ball, as far as how imbalance transfers its engergy even tho they are both 5" to pap, the core sits at a different angle
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby

Edited on 4/24/2009 10:02 AM

J_w73 · « **Reply #19 on:** April 24, 2009, 10:13:40 AM »

quote:
quote:
quote:
quote:
but if there isn't any holes the only thing that will determine what the ball does in terms of layout is the Pin to PAP distance... or the position of the core in relation to the rotation at release..

Thats fine if the ball only has a single axis plane..
--------------------
"USBC is concerned that technology has overtaken player skill in determining success in the sport of bowling"

my point is..

how bout this.. pin is at center grip and it is 5 inches from PAP... No holes in the ball.. Throw the ball.. Now you move the pin up above where the fingers would be and still 5 inches from the PAP.. ball still has no holes.. these two balls will roll exactly the same..
If they won't then please explain.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

you are changing core orientation, they will roll different pin dictates core orientation, moving it up down, side to side changes the orientations thus changing dynamics of the ball, as far as how imbalance transfers its engergy even tho they are both 5" to pap, the core sits at a different angle
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby

Edited on 4/24/2009 10:02 AM

the pin is still the same distance form the PAP on each "orientation" or placement of the pin.. so the orientation of the core in relation to the Rotation would be the same.. that is what the PAP is.. it is the axis point

So if the pin is 5 inches away from the PAP it is 5 inches away... and the core is in the same relation at all places 5 inches from the PAP..
The core will not sit at a different angle..

say the pin is on the Track.. how will starting the ball with the pin at different locations on the track change how the ball rolls..
or the pin on the PAP.. how will starting the ball with (for this example) the labels in different positions change how the ball reacts...

it won't
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 4/24/2009 10:16 AM

Edited on 4/24/2009 10:17 AM

triggerman · « **Reply #20 on:** April 24, 2009, 10:21:10 AM »

nope, pin moves circular around the pap, even tho it is 5" it moves (based upon where the fingers are going) if you dont ever put any holes in it, you are right, the orientation stays the same, if you were able to lock your pap down and then move the pin around it, you would see the core move, based upon your over simplifying it you are assuming your pap is not locked down,

see below

,,,,o,,,,

...............pap

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,o

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,pap

thos are different core orientations but still are 5" pin to pap

because there is a diffent core orientation those would roll differnt
but you have to be able to lock the pap down, if you dont and you just say 5" pin to pap with no holes this ball will always get back to izs prefered axis eventually and do it the same every time,
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby

JohnP · « **Reply #21 on:** April 24, 2009, 10:58:55 AM »

quote:
the fact that 3 3/8" from the PAP flares the most which makes the ball hook the most and the earliest

3 3/8" pin to PAP does create maximum flare, but not earliest hook. The closer the pin is to the PAP the earlier the ball hooks, so 1" pin to PAP, for example, would hook earlier than 3 3/8". And while max flare does tend to create max hook, it can also result in burn up, making the ball straighten out at the back end of the lane. -- JohnP

J_w73 · « **Reply #22 on:** April 24, 2009, 11:48:20 AM »

quote:
Quote
the fact that 3 3/8" from the PAP flares the most which makes the ball hook the most and the earliest

3 3/8" pin to PAP does create maximum flare, but not earliest hook. The closer the pin is to the PAP the earlier the ball hooks, so 1" pin to PAP, for example, would hook earlier than 3 3/8". And while max flare does tend to create max hook, it can also result in burn up, making the ball straighten out at the back end of the lane. -- JohnP[/quote

agree'd.. I should have just said max flare = max hook potential..(that may not be entirely true either) earliest was the wrong word to use..
thank you for the correction.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 4/24/2009 11:49 AM

J_w73 · « **Reply #23 on:** April 24, 2009, 11:59:57 AM »

quote:
nope, pin moves circular around the pap, even tho it is 5" it moves (based upon where the fingers are going) if you dont ever put any holes in it, you are right, the orientation stays the same, if you were able to lock your pap down and then move the pin around it, you would see the core move, based upon your over simplifying it you are assuming your pap is not locked down,

see below

,,,,o,,,,

...............pap

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,o

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,pap

thos are different core orientations but still are 5" pin to pap

because there is a diffent core orientation those would roll differnt
but you have to be able to lock the pap down, if you dont and you just say 5" pin to pap with no holes this ball will always get back to izs prefered axis eventually and do it the same every time,
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby

yes .. the pin revolves around the pap.. and the pin marks the top of the core.. and the core goes through the middle of the ball(or close to it) to the other side of the ball..
look at a ball and and put a ruler in line with how the core would be sitting.. then rotate the ball around the PAP.. the core orientation in relation to the rotation or PAP will not change.. when you move the pin to different locations say 5" from the PAP all you are doing is rotating the ball about its PAP.. where the pin is at (as long as it is at 5" or some give distance from the PAP) during the release will not affect the ball reaction..

If you visualize the pin on the track.. the opposite side of the core is also on the track on the other side of the ball.. now tell me how if you start the rotation with the pin at different positions on the track how it will change the ball reaction..
It is the same thing for any set distance from the PAP..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #24 on:** April 24, 2009, 12:18:34 PM »

quote:
quote:
my point was that it is the holes that are the THING that is ACTUALLY changing what the ball does.. it isn't this VAL line or position to it that is doing the reaction..
The orientation of the core changing as the core migrates to the stable position is dependent on the VAL since that's dependent on the ball's position as it rotates down the lane. There are three dimensions to consider when thinking of how the core rotates back to a stable position when it flares -- I'm pretty certain you're oversimplifying it by assuming the pin to PAP distance is the only aspect of the core's location and rotation itself that will affect ball roll.

yes the pin will migrate (actually the axis migrating)or move to a different distance from the PAP during its path down the lane.. but at the start of the rotation at release is what I am talking about.. basically the imaginary layout on the ball... you could put the pin on the opposite side of the through bots hand at 5" from PAP and it would be the same reaction as if the pin was near center grip at 5 inches to PAP..

I don't see how the orientation to the PAP would be any different.
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #25 on:** April 24, 2009, 12:24:41 PM »

everyone.. I agree the pin will migrate.. it will without holes or with holes..
but at the starting layout is what I am talking about.. which is basically what you are doing when you lay out a drilled bowling ball.. you are laying it out according to the PAP at release..

maybe there is just a misunderstanding in what I am trying to say..
basically how high or how low(for a given distance from PAP) or how close to or far from the VAL (for a given distance from PAP) makes no difference in reaction unless there are holes in the ball..
that basically sums up my position..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

triggerman · « **Reply #26 on:** April 24, 2009, 12:51:07 PM »

quote:
quote:
nope, pin moves circular around the pap, even tho it is 5" it moves (based upon where the fingers are going) if you dont ever put any holes in it, you are right, the orientation stays the same, if you were able to lock your pap down and then move the pin around it, you would see the core move, based upon your over simplifying it you are assuming your pap is not locked down,

see below

,,,,o,,,,

...............pap

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,o

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,pap

thos are different core orientations but still are 5" pin to pap

because there is a diffent core orientation those would roll differnt
but you have to be able to lock the pap down, if you dont and you just say 5" pin to pap with no holes this ball will always get back to izs prefered axis eventually and do it the same every time,
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby

yes .. the pin revolves around the pap.. and the pin marks the top of the core.. and the core goes through the middle of the ball(or close to it) to the other side of the ball..
look at a ball and and put a ruler in line with how the core would be sitting.. then rotate the ball around the PAP.. the core orientation in relation to the rotation or PAP will not change.. when you move the pin to different locations say 5" from the PAP all you are doing is rotating the ball about its PAP.. where the pin is at (as long as it is at 5" or some give distance from the PAP) during the release will not affect the ball reaction..

If you visualize the pin on the track.. the opposite side of the core is also on the track on the other side of the ball.. now tell me how if you start the rotation with the pin at different positions on the track how it will change the ball reaction..
It is the same thing for any set distance from the PAP..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

because you have put finger holes in it locking down the pap in a location and now what your are moving is the pin up and down, changing the core orientation
pap is based off your grip center line so you have two variables that lock your pap, when you put a pin in a different location relative to your pap (with finger holes) your core orientation is changed. now if you dont drill holes but lock the ball in a position such thta you had holes the ball would react differently

o...................
..\.................
....\.....pap......
......\............
........\............

5

in to pap

.........../
........./..
......./...pap
...../..........
.../
./
o

both still on the track side but core orientation changed, pin to pap distance did not, imagine the slashed lines are the pin going thru the core, now tell me again that the core orientation did not change, the two givens pap is measured from grip center, so your grip center and pap dont change, pap is not just given dimension from the pin, it is measured from your grip center verticle and horizontal line (a fixed spot)
--------------------
www.bowlingballexchange.com

Triggerman

F.O.S Loud, F.O.S. Proud

Lane #1 Baby

J_w73 · « **Reply #27 on:** April 24, 2009, 01:12:56 PM »

get what you are saying... if you look at it again you are basically proving my point.. the core is in the same orientation/relation to the PAP and rotation about the PAP..

take a ball and put it in the position you are talking about.. now rotate it about the pap and put the pin in the other position..(with the same pin to pap distance) the core orientation is that same relation to the PAP no matter where you rotate the ball...

you are basically just looking at the ball from another angle..
another way to look at it.. put the ball on the table..set the pin say 5 inches from that pap.. now look at the ball from the top... now put your eye down level with the table..The pin is in a different spot in relation to the PAP based on where you are veiwing it.. but the core orientation has not changed..
it is just the same thing as rotating it about the PAP..

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #28 on:** April 24, 2009, 01:15:00 PM »

I agree it is hard to visualize.. I will try to make a video tonight to illustrate the concept I am trying to explain..

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Dan Belcher · « **Reply #29 on:** April 24, 2009, 01:17:42 PM »

But the ball isn't sitting still! It's rolling around the PAP, which means it's not a matter of just perspective. That's the thing you're ignoring. Imagine just the core itself rotating around a fixed point (hell, Storm's website has the ability to view a 3D core and rotate it on each ball, I think 900 Global does too?) in a specific direction (let's say 30 degrees of axis rotation and 15 degrees of axis tilt, for example) and this should explain better what everybody but you is trying to say. The core is pointing a certain direction at the start, and it's going to rotate from this position to migrate the top of the core back into the stable position. How the core is angled on the Y coordinate as well as the X coordinate will have an effect on when, where, and how the core migrates back into a stable position.

J_w73 · « **Reply #30 on:** April 24, 2009, 02:12:21 PM »

quote:
But the ball isn't sitting still! It's rolling around the PAP, which means it's not a matter of just perspective. That's the thing you're ignoring. Imagine just the core itself rotating around a fixed point (hell, Storm's website has the ability to view a 3D core and rotate it on each ball, I think 900 Global does too?) in a specific direction (let's say 30 degrees of axis rotation and 15 degrees of axis tilt, for example) and this should explain better what everybody but you is trying to say. The core is pointing a certain direction at the start, and it's going to rotate from this position to migrate the top of the core back into the stable position. How the core is angled on the Y coordinate as well as the X coordinate will have an effect on when, where, and how the core migrates back into a stable position.

I understand the pin moves and migrates during its rotation down the lane..I am not talking about that...
I am talking about the pin relation to the VAL in a layout at release.. or on the layout.. the pin doesn't know where it is at in the rotation about the PAP at every point 5 " from the PAP at release... so it isn't the pin being close to a magical VAL line that changes the reaction.. it is the position of the holes in relation to the core that changes the ball reaction..
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 782
Book Average 215 / 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Author Topic: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing.. (Read 8123 times)

J_w73

VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

Dan Belcher

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

triggerman

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

triggerman

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

JohnP

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

triggerman

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

Dan Belcher

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..

J_w73

Re: VAL angle / Pin Buffer spewing..