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General Category => Drilling & Layouts => Topic started by: Brian362 on July 16, 2009, 02:08:25 AM

Title: high rev drilling???
Post by: Brian362 on July 16, 2009, 02:08:25 AM
i have more than avg revs and avg speed. strong drillings don't seem to work for me and i am typically using low end equipment. are there any drillings that will work for me? my pap is 4 3/4 and 1/4 up. Thanks

In the past pin down under my ring finger have worked on several balls, when there is a lot of oil.
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on July 17, 2009, 01:42:01 AM
When you say "typically using low end equipment", exactly what piece(s) are you using?  Where are you playing?
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You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Locke on July 17, 2009, 03:08:16 AM
I have a pap around 6 over by 1/2 up with higher than average revs and average speed. I never put a pin as low as even with the fingers. I try to keep pins at least 1 inch about the fingers. On low end stuff I tend to go 1 inch above bridge with the cg at least as far left as my ring finger.
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Always be sincere, even when you don't mean it

The Cell Pimp
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: JustRico on July 17, 2009, 07:01:21 AM
The closer to leverage, the more unstable your reaction will be with higher than normal rev rate.
With today's core strengths, I would suggest starting with pins 5" from your PAP and try placing above your fingers. If the flares are too tight, place a weight hole accordingly.
If the pin position still creates too much flare, go 5 1/2" from your PAP.
You can also use flare reducing weight holes, which tend to be 2 1/2" inside your PAP or towards your grip from your PAP.
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Formerly BrunsRico

As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on July 17, 2009, 07:16:52 AM
quote:
The closer to leverage, the more unstable your reaction will be with higher than normal rev rate.
With today's core strengths, I would suggest starting with pins 5" from your PAP and try placing above your fingers. If the flares are too tight, place a weight hole accordingly.
If the pin position still creates too much flare, go 5 1/2" from your PAP.
You can also use flare reducing weight holes, which tend to be 2 1/2" inside your PAP or towards your grip from your PAP.
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Formerly BrunsRico

As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"


Doesn't a hole 2 1/2 up from PAP do the same thing?  I can't remember how Nick ran it down in his X-hole vid...
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You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: JustRico on July 17, 2009, 07:21:42 AM
It is similar but you take a big chance on flaring over it. I NEVER USE THIS WEIGHT HOLE for that reason. It is safer to drill the fingers deeper to eliminate the need for a high hole.
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Formerly BrunsRico

As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on July 17, 2009, 07:26:59 AM
quote:
It is similar but you take a big chance on flaring over it. I NEVER USE THIS WEIGHT HOLE for that reason. It is safer to drill the fingers deeper to eliminate the need for a high hole.
--------------------
Formerly BrunsRico

As posted by Steven..."None other than our esteemed JustRico!!"


Thanks.  I actually have that X-hole on my Power Machine.  I'm lucky for not flaring over it.
--------------------
You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Brian362 on July 19, 2009, 05:07:38 PM
quote:
When you say "typically using low end equipment", exactly what piece(s) are you using?  Where are you playing?
--------------------
You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/



track tantrum, brunswick power groove have been mainstays. I'm playing really deep inside lines (20-5 to around 30-7) Most people at the house use more aggressive equipment. My driller has been thinking of doing a ball for me with the pin really high above my fingers. i don't typically have any trouble getting balls to recover to the pocket. if i play up ten....i HAVE to use plastic. This is ALL on THS. On the PBA patterns, I don't have any problem playing straighter....I'm getting to the point where that is what I'd prefer to compete on. Thanks for the suggestions so far!!!
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Dan Belcher on July 19, 2009, 07:20:49 PM
Without seeing you actually bowl, this is kind of a generic piece of advice, but I'll post it anyway.  Maybe a little release tweak will also help you control the movement off the friction.  Less axis rotation and more focus on getting the ball rolling hard (think Chris Barnes for example) might let you straighten up while still keeping your rev rate high.  The other plus side to this is more control, better pin carry, etc.
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: wpzone on July 19, 2009, 10:40:48 PM
quote:
I NEVER USE THIS WEIGHT HOLE for that reason. It is safer to drill the fingers deeper to eliminate the need for a high hole.


How deep can you drill the fingers without affecting the dynamics of the core, or is this even a concern?
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: six pack on July 20, 2009, 07:51:53 PM
do you have problems clearing the heads or just controlling the break point? I like to have a ball with a layout of 5"-6" from pap below the grip line,looks like a low tracker layout.it will still hook alot but wont jump off the dry like a pin up lay out.
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The harder I try the harder they fall
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on July 21, 2009, 02:16:10 AM
quote:
quote:
When you say "typically using low end equipment", exactly what piece(s) are you using?  Where are you playing?
--------------------
You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/



track tantrum, brunswick power groove have been mainstays. I'm playing really deep inside lines (20-5 to around 30-7) Most people at the house use more aggressive equipment. My driller has been thinking of doing a ball for me with the pin really high above my fingers. i don't typically have any trouble getting balls to recover to the pocket. if i play up ten....i HAVE to use plastic. This is ALL on THS. On the PBA patterns, I don't have any problem playing straighter....I'm getting to the point where that is what I'd prefer to compete on. Thanks for the suggestions so far!!!


Your power grrove, definitely low end.  Though others may disagree, I don't consider the Tantrum low-end by any means.  Something I've been working on lately, so I will ask you the same thing.  What is your wrist position?  Until lately, my wrist has been as cupped as it gets and I have to play as deep as you do, sometimes deeper.

If this is the case, what you are experiencing is not enough skid from the ball.  I've tried all sorts of layouts-6" pins negative MB's, more loft, etc.  If you can flatten your wrist some(I.E. your index finger more in line with your arm), it can keep you from getting way too much into the ball.  Careful with flattening the hand too much-as you can quickly go from little to no skid to way too much skid.
--------------------
You may be the better bowler, but my car would blow the doors off of yours.
http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Brian362 on July 21, 2009, 09:41:38 AM
I've tried several wrist postions. This helps to some degree. The problem is when the ball encounters friction. It is nearly uncontrollable. I believe that for years I used to hang in the ball so much that I would put the death grip on the ball. Since working with Paul, my release is really clean and my rev rate is significantly increased. So much so, I had to work on developing more ball speed to better match my release. I get a lot of tilt. My ball motion has been compared to the verizon check mark. We have tried pin down drilling to get equipment to roll earlier to cut down on that backend explosion. This has helped and I have a few 300s to show for it. I don't have a video recorder to show my ball path. I will ask a few friends to see if they have one I may borrow.
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Dan Belcher on July 21, 2009, 09:48:56 AM
quote:
I get a lot of tilt.
Well, at least we now know exactly what problems you're running into.  Tilt is going to create extra skid in the front part of the lane, and a more violent response to friction in the back part of the lane.  You can try slower-transitioning drillings and using lower-grit surfaces to get the ball to react less violently, but I really recommend working on your release with a coach to reduce your axis tilt.  Focus more on getting the ball rolling rather than spinning.  If you can do this while still maintaining your rev rate, your ball reaction should become more controllable, but you'll still shred the rack.
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Brian362 on July 21, 2009, 09:52:24 AM
Thanks Dan. How do I work on drecreasing tilt?
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: tc300 on July 21, 2009, 03:26:09 PM
ive been told my pap is 6'' +... almost every ball i have drilled with a weight hole, i flare over to it and past....i hate it!!! told my driller but pretty much said its ok  ??????  i read some where awhile back that ppl with high revs and speed shouldnt have a weight more than 4'' past the center grip line...
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Dan Belcher on July 21, 2009, 03:30:40 PM
quote:
Thanks Dan. How do I work on drecreasing tilt?
Working with a good coach is probably the best solution really, since it's hard to do just through words alone.  However, the best way I can convey it to you is to change your mentality on how to hook the ball.  Focus on getting the ball to roll as opposed to spin.  Watch Chris Barnes, Norm Duke, etc. release the ball in slow-motion, and you'll see what generates a heavy ball roll.  Get the thumb out quickly and cleanly while your fingers are still under the equater of the ball, then let gravity and momentum do the work for you.  The ball will roll downward off your hand and off your fingertips while your arm is moving upward, creating the end-over-end part of the roll.  Your hand's position during this creates the axis rotation part.  If you try to really turn the ball from right to left, you're going to end up creating axis tilt, which makes the ball spin sideways down the lane more, which promotes early skid in oil and violent motion off friction.
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: No Revs00300 on July 21, 2009, 03:30:55 PM
Try a rico. I am over 500 rev rate and for me rico drillings help reduce the backend snap and promote a nice smooth reaction.
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Brian362 on July 22, 2009, 07:37:37 AM
i have tried rico drillings....and had GREAT success with it on the longer PBA patterns. (Scorpion & Scorpion) It does not snap but it starts to pick up at just past the arrows. Thanks again Dan, I'm going to work with Paul today on tweaking my release. I have the rest of summer to get it straight.
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: leftyinsnellville on July 22, 2009, 08:11:43 AM
I posted a slow motion video of Chris Barnes' release on my website:

www.averagebolwersballreviews.com  

(Yeah, I know...bowler is spelled wrong.  I'm a dork.)

It's under the Pictures and Misc. Videos section.  It'll give you a very good idea of what Mr. Belcher is talking about.


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The sun is the same in a relative way but you're older, and shorter of breath and one day closer to death.  
Time - Pink Floyd, Dark Side of the Moon
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: six pack on July 22, 2009, 12:10:59 PM
well to stay behind the ball is fairly easy.for R.H start with the hand under the ball with the weight of the ball resting between your pointing finger and thumb as far to the right as you comfortably can and keep that wrist position from beginning of your swing,to your backswing and through the release. during the release follow through with your ring finger,you can change ball reactions simply with different finger pressure and slight wrist positions as well as different release points.
I have high revs but not so much tilt so I have problems with stuff rolling out if I slow my ball speed down to about 15-16 mph.I also don't care for alot of the big backend stuff but I have a few.I've found MoRich good for controlling the backends and still have a strong finish with the right lay outs and cover preps.Brunswick has also worked well for me and some ebonites like the v2 core balls.I stay away from Storm as they backend for me like crazy,not bad stuff just don't match up well with storm.
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The harder I try the harder they fall
Title: Re: high rev drilling???
Post by: Brian362 on July 22, 2009, 12:31:07 PM
Going to work on these tips today with Paul. I'll report back later with an update. Thanks everyone!