Post by: charlest on May 14, 2010, 02:15:00 PM
May I politely ask those with high ball speeds to not reply to this query. We know your ball speed reduces the backend of any ball. So you never worry about this subject.
Eeven my most even rolling resin have a lot of backend on/in my league, with 30 feet of guardian and short oil and incredible backend. My urethanes are good until the 3rd & 4th games when carrydown affects their carry.
So I'm wondering about this drilling. I have never used it. I have not yet (until now) believed I would need it.
Thoughts?
(Please leave all sarcasm at the front desk. Thank you. I will not react with kindness towards such comments. I am very frustrated at this point in time.)
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: batbowler on May 14, 2010, 10:34:20 PM
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Post by: No Revs00300 on May 14, 2010, 10:44:09 PM
Post by: charlest on May 15, 2010, 12:17:04 AM
quote:
I have a couple of balls drilled this way. for me they react very much like a urethane ball would with the exception of a little bit more length and a little more backend. I want to say though you can get some serious over under, or atleast I have until I played around with surface adjustments. One of the balls I have drilled this way (revolution rebel pearl) usually doesn't leave my bag when bowling somewhere I am unfamiliar with. Hope this helps.
AH! It's that "little" that concerns me.
My Visionary Gladiator Pearl, a very even and smooth reacting ball, that made a HUGE left turn when I slowed down the least little bit tonight that prompted this post.
"God" is still residing in the details.
I'm considering drilling a medium-light oil pearl (Sharp Noize, Freeze, Dark Star, BackSlash Red/Purple, Hype reactive, Boom, etc.) with pin on PAP but still wonder how this type of drill will smoothe out the basic reaction.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: drillbit on May 15, 2010, 12:36:02 AM
As to the Darkstar, mine is very smooth at the break(layout in profile), sometimes too smooth. It has trouble cornering and carrying from deep lines(4th arrow and in), but 3rd arrow and out it's very effective. The best thing about it is it doesn't go crazy at the break point.
Drilled pin-axis, I imagine this ball would be extremely controllable, though carry might be an issue.
I can't comment on the others you're considering drilling.
drillbit
Post by: Strider on May 15, 2010, 07:21:23 AM
Have you tried plastic? Maybe you'd be further right of the urethane, only having to move a little during the night staying out of the carry down?
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Post by: charlest on May 15, 2010, 09:46:02 AM
I have no idea if such a ball would be better or worse. Those balls I listed were just off the top of me head. I am not locked into anything right now. Still not even sure about the idea. Thanks, though.
Plastic works at times. Sometimes, it too dry for that, outside of 10. Inside, it won''t turn. In the 3rd and 4th games, soemtimes urethane won''t make the turn in the carrydown and spottiness. There are so many seemingly "sometimes" conditions, in this league. Higher ball speed seems to be the only alternative that always works.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 5/15/2010 9:49 AM
Post by: bluerrpilot on May 15, 2010, 10:06:44 AM
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Post by: Nicanor on May 15, 2010, 10:09:05 AM
I didn't like this drilling at all. Had it on a couple of balling balls and carry was always a probelm. Would work ok on short oil patterns but would pick up too early and roll out.
The drilling that worked better for me was the pin half way between the pap and middle of the span and the CG middle of the span. I realize that bowlers have different PAPs, but I would recommend goin a little left of the PAP and putting the CG in the middle of the span.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Post by: LuckyLefty on May 15, 2010, 10:28:58 AM
I don't think it is your solution for starters...
But I remember Richie of Lane1 was a big proponent of this on Plastic!
However he has a lot of hand(no thumber) AND he also added a variation ...that being a weighthole 9 inches from Grip center at a was it 4:30 direction? I think.
This gave it a little pop at the end!
I'm surprised a urethane doesn't work....and the problem is too much carrydown to carry(not enough backend implied)....and yet if not enough speed...too much backend it sounds like.
Sort of confusing..description really.
Do you have a pearl urethane?...Also how about a pearl urethane with a reaction enhancing weight hole? Sounds goods. If the ball is moving too soon and yet has too little backend? Maybe?
My son has a Red Hammer....that is a nice ball(but I can't think of any pearl urethanes these days).
REgards,
Luckylefty
PS somewhere I have I have a blue pearl urethane in storage...never used by me but by someone else.
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Post by: the pooh on May 15, 2010, 10:31:47 AM
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the pooh
Post by: Juggernaut on May 15, 2010, 10:44:49 AM
Back in the urethane days, he used to shoot lights out with a two piece ball with the pin "IN", drilled what was called "block weight" ( pin and cg three inches from grip center on midline, x-hole three inches past that, also on midline), so we got an older reactive (CRUSH/R) with the pin "IN" and drilled it up that way. The pin & cg ended up about 2 inches from his pap and the x-hole brought it back to 3/4oz positive side.
He just started using it a few weeks ago, and hasn't shot anything BIG with it (does have a couple of 650's though), but was still playing with the surface. He had it at 1000ab this week, and the ball was VERY urethanish.
Swung out into the dry, it NEVER snapped, just arced and rolled. When pulled just a touch, it held. Thing is, it did seem to have that reactive POP when it hit the pins. And, like in the old days, it was just a matter of where to hit the dry breakpoint. He even said it was like bowling in a time warp from the 1980's. He could actually use the dry outsides, swinging out to it to get the ball to set harder. The further into the dry he threw it, the harder it arced and rolled, but like I said earlier, NEVER snapped.
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Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: charlest on May 15, 2010, 01:51:08 PM
quote:
you can drill a ball to reduce flare as much as you want, but it still comes down to the cover and how it will respond to friction. Drilling a pin axis ball will get you close to urethane motion but even the weakest resin cover will spark more in the dry.
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Sorry, but definitely not true.
Some mild resin pearls, like my original Hot Rod Pearl and my Slingshot, get better length than my Desperado, even with the Desperado's high pin and polished pearl urethane coverstock.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: charlest on May 15, 2010, 01:53:14 PM
quote:
Jeff,
I didn't like this drilling at all. Had it on a couple of balling balls and carry was always a probelm. Would work ok on short oil patterns but would pick up too early and roll out.
Darn, Barry, and you have much high ball speed than I do.
quote:
The drilling that worked better for me was the pin half way between the pap and middle of the span and the CG middle of the span. I realize that bowlers have different PAPs, but I would recommend goin a little left of the PAP and putting the CG in the middle of the span.
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Nicanor (Ten On The Deck)
Thanks. If it worked for you, it could work for me. I do want to cut down the backend.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: charlest on May 15, 2010, 01:57:27 PM
quote:
I have tried this and similar drillings many times over the years. Invariably, I got rid of them! Like Nicanor, they rolled way too early and hit very flat.I had no "miss" room. Urethane was much better. Plastic was much better. Plastic with some surface is much better(like 2000AB) A Starburst XXXL is a much better option, if you don't already have one. Another option would be a pancake cored plastic ball with the layout the winners used recently. My best results for a similar drilling are 2 1/4" pin to pap. Still flares a little and has a little area and is MUCH more forgiving than pin on pap. At least with one of the plastic options, you can play right of the urethanes with no over/under. If you must try it, I wouldn't go closer than 1 1/2", otherwise as Mo Pinel states " it will [lock] on the pin if it is any closer". I, too am fighting too much backend almost everywhere I bowl, because of reduced ball speed due to health problems.
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the pooh
Pooh,
I have used pancake plastic at times successfully: both Blue Dot and Ice Storm. Last time the heads were really fried around 10 boards, such that I actually couldn't the ball thru the 2nd arrow out to the 5 board, yet inside had too much oil for the plastic. I know well about the XXXL. A friend uses it well. There are a couple of options I want to try before I try another NEW ball.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on May 17, 2010, 10:47:45 AM
quote:
I actually had a Storm La Nina drilled similar to that! The pin was like 1-1/2" from my pap and I was able to play more of the outside drier boards and the ball would hook/set and actually played really good! Now I'm asking myself why I don't have a ball in my arsenal now to be able to play when the lanes breakdown! It does take the snap off the backend and it's more even rolling!
I have a Power Machine with this pin position with the MB in my track. This also allowed me to play further right during a Viper regional recently when the lanes were broken down with the same reaction that he mentioned.
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Post by: dizzyfugu on May 17, 2010, 11:30:25 AM
quote:
I actually had a Storm La Nina drilled similar to that! The pin was like 1-1/2" from my pap and I was able to play more of the outside drier boards and the ball would hook/set and actually played really good!
That would be my suggestion, too - maybe a bit stronger (say 2") if you do not have lots of hand, or if the ball has little differential. But a semi-axis to pin-axis setup like this is IMHO the ticket if over/under is your issue. It is a rolly setup, though, that needs from my experience some aggressiveness in teh release for good carry - nothing for true fluffers. But it works, arcs, and blends out any wet/dry, as far as I can tell from personal experience.
For a urethane-mock-up, take a weak reactive like a Power Groove or a Tropical Storm (even a used one is fine, just for trials!), keep the surface shiny (or just with a fine sanded surface - roll-out is an imminent issue!), and play up the boards close to the gutter. Hooks and plays way different from a normal setup with the pin beyond leverage point. But with some training I find it a very handy weapon for late games.
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Post by: charlest on May 17, 2010, 11:52:31 AM
Thanks for all your replies so far.
I'm thinking because 1-10 boards are usually "sparkin'", that if I chose this type of drilling, I'd need not exactly pin on PAP, but probably more something like 1.5-2" pin to PAP. I've ordered an Avalanche Slide to try such a drilling out. Keep your fingers crossed.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Xcessive_Evil on May 17, 2010, 11:54:10 AM
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http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v690/Phoenix_RsX/Arsenal/
Post by: charlest on May 17, 2010, 01:35:51 PM
quote:
Let us know how it rolls for ya.
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I should have it drilled in time for this fubar league on Friday. We'll see how I feel after using it.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: Jesse James on May 17, 2010, 03:34:26 PM
Good luck with your drilling experiment, either way you go.
I have used the pin axis drilling before. It is extremely smooth, and rolly, just as others on here have already spoken of. The problem was carry, more than anything else. I had to be extremely accurate to say it was successful. For me, this drilling was condition specific.
I do have three balls drilled in the "barbell" layout Nicanor spoke of. They were much more useful,....and on a variety of conditions, with a fairly even reaction all the way down the lane.
Good luck with your selection.
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Post by: dizzyfugu on May 18, 2010, 02:22:43 AM
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Post by: charlest on May 18, 2010, 09:42:17 AM
You're right about the AValanche but this is the Slide with a really long, mild coverstock. So I'm not worried about using it in light oil.Brunswick numbers make this barely, just barely stronger than the SlingShot and I know how that reacts.
Again, my main objective is to use a very mild resin and reduce the backend of the ball a lot, on very snappy, dry backends.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: TWOHAND834 on May 18, 2010, 09:58:22 AM
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If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 18, 2010, 10:08:41 AM
I think I have a good combo with this setup and ball for me and my game - it is just a deadly rolling ball, and the cover has a LOT of traction, despite the polish.
Hopefully you have less length problems with the Slide - and I am curious how things turn out! It is, anyway, a recommendable layout if you want a special purpose ball, or an alternative for a totally different reaction on the lane.
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Post by: Juggernaut on May 18, 2010, 09:06:24 PM
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Good transactions list in my profile
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 19, 2010, 03:08:48 AM
quote:
Heres Dizzy''s video of the power groove he spoke of: http://de.video.yahoo.com/watch/5346519/14091083
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Good transactions list in my profile
Uh
- anyway, I hope you can see the reaction and how the core migrates continously towards the pin axis. And, esp. in the high angle shots, you can see how little "steam" the ball has in the back end. The Renegade, which I consider a good equivalent in overall strength, is much "snappier" and has a lot more back end to offer, on the same condition.--------------------
DizzyFugu - Reporting from Germany
Confused by bowling? Check out BR.com''s vault of wisdom: the unofficial FAQ section (http://"http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=74110&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5")
Edited on 5/19/2010 3:33 AM
Post by: JessN16 on May 19, 2010, 07:49:00 PM
I was afraid it might have been the ball itself, but I gave that ball away to another guy whose span was identical with mine. He rakes with it.
I'd like to try it on something different, perhaps a pearl at 1000 with a light buff, or a polished solid.
Jess
Post by: charlest on May 19, 2010, 08:50:53 PM
That might not have been the best choice of balls. Remember all length, with such a drilling, now comes from the surface of the ball, your ball speed and rotation + tilt, and the lane oil. (Also a higher RG also would help somewhat.) Something mild and/or polished is your safest bet, UNLESS you want to play a reverse block by using ab early rolling, dull solid.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Post by: dizzyfugu on May 21, 2010, 01:15:46 AM
quote:
Jess,
That might not have been the best choice of balls. Remember all length, with such a drilling, now comes from the surface of the ball, your ball speed and rotation + tilt, and the lane oil.
+1, from what I can tell. Even my rather weak Power Groove is VERY rolly, despite polish and its high RG. With a low RG/high end piece like a XXXtreme, I think that you just had "too much ball" as a basis - it might have been useful on a 50' wet/dry swamp, but I think the very poor back end and the corner pins due to low stored energy is just symptomatic. Using a weak piece is IMHO the way to go with a half axis of even pin axis setup - and adjusting the surface fro more traction if that should actually be needed!
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Post by: charlest on May 21, 2010, 11:17:09 PM
) . So, of course, after suffering for 2 months of bone dry, now with me finally (I believe) prepared for this BS, what do we get but an end pair known for its carrydown and spottiness. Sigh ...For the first game the AS with this drilling worked its charm. I played right on the oil line and it made a nice little, controlled flip at the backend, as if it read the oil and the exact spot where the dry began. Except for a missed 4/7 (I had to put in a new thumb insert in the spare ball and hadn''t yet tried it since the day before when the Avalanche was drilled. Darn!) Shot a 224 with that open the first game.
Then the end pair showed "the knot in its knickers". Everybody''s game went into the bitter transition. Between the dry and the Carrydown, I had to change both balls and releases to make any headway.
(FYI I won 4 out of 5 points from the league''s high point winner! Made my freaking day!!)
But the drilling and the ball worked very well. Thanks again for all the suggestions. Oh, a little bit of new ball carry and hitting power didn''t hurt the scoreboard one bit either.
(To those, like Nicanor and others, who suggested a barbell, I was awfully tempted, but I knew I''d need a little bit of length help, so I went with the 2x5.)
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Edited on 5/21/2010 11:29 PM