Author Topic: I have a lot of tilt (Read 4928 times)

ConfuzionZW · « **on:** September 08, 2008, 05:29:17 PM »

I throw the ball about 17-18 MPH with a pretty high rev rate probably 420-450ish, but I have a lot of tilt, (I'm working on more foward roll) so when my ball hits the dry it is like a left hand turn I leave more solid 9 pins then any other pin by far, I probably leave twice as many 9 pins as I do 10's, I need a layout that would help me get the ball to back off on the back end and not over hook the dry so much and hopefully give me more room on the lanes to miss, but the problem is if the pin is below the fingers I thump the ball no matter what... So does anyone ahve any advice on what I could do? It would be much apperciated, thank you.

charlest · « **Reply #1 on:** September 09, 2008, 05:24:30 AM »

What you're saying is generally contradictory.
If you have a lot of tilt, your track is generally not near the thumb or fingers, so it should not be thumping anything. High tilt players have a low track. Players that rollover the fingers have a high track.

BTW you should say what you are thumping, thumb or fingers, as it makes a big difference.

Could it be that you have a high axis of rotation, not tilt?
Axis of rotation is where your fingers are at the release point. If fingers are at 6:00, then you have 0 degrees. If they are at 4:30 for a righty (7:30 for a lefty), then you have 45 degrees. If they are at 3:00 for a righty (9:00 for a lefty), then you have 90 degrees, like Pete Weber does.
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scotts33 · « **Reply #2 on:** September 09, 2008, 06:09:54 AM »

TJ but I think it will help the OP.

quote:
If they are at 3:00 for a righty (9:00 for a lefty), then you have 90 degrees, like Pete Weber does.

Jeff,

Can you explain to us how PDW has a 5 1/2" or more PAP considered to be a high tracking player but has a 90 deg. high axis of rotation? I've always wondered how he stays under the ball so well but comes around it to cause this. I've worked on this type of release for years.
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Scott

SKC · « **Reply #3 on:** September 09, 2008, 06:20:06 AM »

What is your Axis/PAP?

After a summer of almost no bowling, i have started off with a lot of tilt and some layouts are now clipping my thumb.. I am though just working on getting my wrist "back in shape" instead of drilling new balls.. Happens often to me when i take a long break.. Right now my PAP is 4 1/2 - 1 1/2 up..

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Dan Belcher · « **Reply #4 on:** September 09, 2008, 07:16:55 AM »

quote:
Jeff,

Can you explain to us how PDW has a 5 1/2" or more PAP considered to be a high tracking player but has a 90 deg. high axis of rotation? I've always wondered how he stays under the ball so well but comes around it to cause this. I've worked on this type of release for years.
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Scott

I'm not Jeff, but I'll give it a shot. (And by the way, if I remember right, PDW's axis point is 6" straight across)
Watch the slow-motion replay of Pete's release at 3:30 into this video: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=208rIbbtakg Notice how he uses a very cupped wrist to get his fingers far underneath the ball while getting around to the side of the ball, then opens up his hand and quickly and cleanly lifts up. He's getting a lot of side rotation on the ball through this motion, hence the roughly 90 degree axis rotation. However, look at his hand position. He's getting the ball to roll instead of spin, hence the higher track. When he's throwing it well, it's one of the purest releases the game has ever seen, so don't be too disappointed if you can't quite emulate it.

scotts33 · « **Reply #5 on:** September 09, 2008, 08:58:48 AM »

Good video Dan. Good points.

I've watched PDW for a long time as I am in the Midwest Region also. Marvel at his ability to stay under the ball with that high of a PAP and still get around the side of it.....almost the complete reversal of what WRW does.
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Scott

charlest · « **Reply #6 on:** September 09, 2008, 10:38:14 AM »

quote:
Good video Dan. Good points.

I've watched PDW for a long time as I am in the Midwest Region also. Marvel at his ability to stay under the ball with that high of a PAP and still get around the side of it.....almost the complete reversal of what WRW does.
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Scott

Nice video and explanation, Dan.

Some thoughts:
His 90 degree accounts for his huge backend and carry power, but also for his lack of consistency on many of the new patterns and with resin balls in particular. When you have that much skid, you need a lot of very even reacting lane surface, from left to right AND from front to rear, and that is not always possible. It's also why WRW's worse release (in my opinion, than PDW's) results in more consistent scores while having less carry potential. WRW also has a high track but mostly uses almost ZERO rotation. His thumb clearance ability seems so much worse than PDW's, but since he covers less boards, he is less subject to the whims of the spreading oil and transitions.

How he does it is practice: don't forget he's been doing it for 35 - 40 years.
He doesn't turn the ball until his thumb is out of it. How he can turn it so much - look at the video in slo-mo.

While I'd love to be able to do that, I'd be thrilled to be able to rotate my finegrs cleanly for only 45 degrees.

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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
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Edited on 9/9/2008 10:40 AM

ConfuzionZW · « **Reply #7 on:** September 09, 2008, 02:36:16 PM »

Yeah I have a very high ball track so it doesnt make since to me either, I thump over the finger if the pin is below the fingers, people tell me I release the ball like pete weber, and I'm not saying thats a bad thing but pete has so much touch that he can get away with it where I cant. I'm trying to stay more behind the ball to give me a more even roll, but not sure. Someone told me that the pin above the middle finger might be a good layout because it is anti flare? anyone else?

charlest · « **Reply #8 on:** September 09, 2008, 04:57:25 PM »

COnfuzion,

I'd guess you have a lot of rotation and not tilt in this scenario.
If you roll over the fingers, You need to keep your pin on or above a line from your PAP to your ring finger.

If you're leaving too many 9 pins, I suggest a couple of things.
1. Use a weaker ball.
2. Use a drilling that helps the ball stand up earlier. Usually that implies a couple of possibilities:
a) use a pin closer to your PAP,
b) use a pin-CG distance thats shorter than you use now. If you usually use a 3-4" pin use a 2-3" one. If you use 2-3" use a 1-2" pin-Cg.
c) Use a drilling that kicks the CG out far enough of enough into the thumb positiove quadrant, that you need a weight hole. Put a large (7/8" x 2 1/2") weight hole 2" past your PAP or 2 -3" below your PAP. That tpye of hole in thaose areas tends to make the ball flare more and earlier. You'll get less and a more controlled backend, in general.
3. use a little more surface than you normally do. This will help the ball burn off some energy and not save it all for the backend. If you use 2000 grit, use 1500 grit. If you use 1000 grit, change to 800 grit. etc. if your polsihed ball has a 1500 grit polished finish, use 800 or 1000 grit polished.
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"None are so blind as those who will not see."
Unofficial Ballreviews.com FAQ

LuckyLefty · « **Reply #9 on:** September 09, 2008, 05:11:50 PM »

Well, I am not 90degrees but at times near 70 and have a high track.

Too little axis tilt!

I don't know how I do it. But when slow....it ain't pretty! Can you say Vicious right turn! When faster it's purty!

REgards,

Luckylefty
PS oil is easy....dry not so much! I don't remember if I've seen Pete on TV on the Cheetah(I think not)....but outside with severe dry...not nice!
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Open the door...see what's possible...and just walk right on through...that's how easy success feels..

TWOHAND834 · « **Reply #10 on:** September 09, 2008, 05:30:07 PM »

I have the same problem. So let me help you out. The best drillings for this type of problem is up and out. First thing is to find out your PAP (axis point). I am a 5 1/2 straight across. So, I usually put the pin above the fingers and about a 1/2 - 1 inch outside the ring finger. This will create enough flare to get off the holes pretty quickly. Flare is everything. If you don't have the ball flaring, you will not get off the holes fast enough to get the ball rolling. The reason for so many 9 pins, is that the ball is too far down the lane before it start to enter the pocket. Entry angle is too steep. I have a 540 rev rate and on most nights, the most 9s I leave is 2 or 3 and most nights, do not leave any. Plus, I even use 16 pounds. Another thing, is not use polish on your stuff. Put your trust on abralon pads to adjust breakpoint. Polish helps to conserve energy for more backend reaction.

First thing is first. Get your axis point. Most important thing before anyone can suggest a layout.
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Steven Vance
Pro Shop Operator

If anyone out there is worried about the scores being too high, try duckpin!!

JohnP · « **Reply #11 on:** September 09, 2008, 10:38:40 PM »

Another possibility to reduce the number of 9 pin leaves -- reduce your ball weight by a pound to get more deflection. -- JohnP

Author Topic: I have a lot of tilt (Read 4928 times)

ConfuzionZW

I have a lot of tilt

charlest

Re: I have a lot of tilt

scotts33

Re: I have a lot of tilt

SKC

Re: I have a lot of tilt

Dan Belcher

Re: I have a lot of tilt

scotts33

Re: I have a lot of tilt

charlest

Re: I have a lot of tilt

ConfuzionZW

Re: I have a lot of tilt

charlest

Re: I have a lot of tilt

LuckyLefty

Re: I have a lot of tilt

TWOHAND834

Re: I have a lot of tilt

JohnP

Re: I have a lot of tilt