Author Topic: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP (Read 8423 times)

J_w73 · « **on:** November 23, 2009, 12:33:34 PM »

I have a brunswick sidewinder that I want just a little more out of.

It is drilled 4" pin to pap. I have it drilled up so it will work for a double thumb type drilling but there currently insn't a weight hole. What I want to know what will be the difference in reaction if I put a weight hole in the double thumb location vs below my PAP on the VAL.
Either hole would be 6 3/4 from the pin.

I know I will get a bunch of links to the morich gradient line x-hole technique. I know about that but I really think that the distance from pin to x-hole mostly determines the reaction or atleast the final RG.. example.. The difference in differential change from P1 to P4 is less for a 5 inch pin to PAP ball .. A ball at leverage is alot.. as P1 is 3 3/8 away and really doesn't alter the RG diff that much.. and p4 is 6 3/4 with max change in RG diff.

So if I have two balls that have holes that are each 6 3/4 from the pin what will be the difference in reaction based on these two locations.

here is a link to a pic I put together

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2798/4129290581_9f11ac0357_o.jpg
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #16 on:** December 03, 2009, 01:14:31 PM »

Very good link, but I have a major problem with this:

quote:

If drilling a balance hole into the pin reduces flare potential, we know that drilling a balance hole 6 3/4 inches will increase flare potential.

This is not always true. A hole 6-3/4" from the PAP located inside the bowlers VAL is going to decrease flare. I know this is a reputable source you are citing, but this is just plain incorrect. I''ll buy that pin to x-hole distance can make a difference, but it is not as important as distance and direction from PAP. You have to combine the two aspects to truly understand what that x-hole is doing.

An x-hole 6-3/4" maximizes the asymmetry you are creating. This is true, but how you orient that asymmetry compared to the migrating PAP is what determines the effect on reaction. An x-hole 6-3/4" from the pin can increase flare. An x-hole 6-3/4" from the pin can decrease flare. Therefore, there must be a position 6-3/4" from the pin that will not affect flare. Put this all together. It is possible to have an x-hole 4" from the pin that will increase flare and an x-hole 6-3/4" from the pin that will decrease flare. You have to take everything into consideration.

--------------------
Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Edited on 12/3/2009 2:16 PM

J_w73 · « **Reply #17 on:** December 03, 2009, 01:41:22 PM »

quote:
Very good link, but I have a major problem with this:

quote:

If drilling a balance hole into the pin reduces flare potential, we know that drilling a balance hole 6 3/4 inches will increase flare potential.

This is not always true. A hole 6-3/4" from the PAP located inside the bowlers VAL is going to decrease flare. I know this is a reputable source you are citing, but this is just plain incorrect. I''ll buy that pin to x-hole distance can make a difference, but it is not as important as distance and direction from PAP. You have to combine the two aspects to truly understand what that x-hole is doing.

An x-hole 6-3/4" maximizes the asymmetry you are creating. This is true, but how you orient that asymmetry compared to the migrating PAP is what determines the effect on reaction. An x-hole 6-3/4" from the pin can increase flare. An x-hole 6-3/4" from the pin can decrease flare. Therefore, there must be a position 6-3/4" from the pin that will not affect flare. Put this all together. It is possible to have an x-hole 4" from the pin that will increase flare and an x-hole 6-3/4" from the pin that will decrease flare. You have to take everything into consideration.

--------------------
Where is the bait? I''m goin'' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Edited on 12/3/2009 2:16 PM

I'm assuming you meant "A hole 6-3/4" from the" Pin and not PAP in your first sentence..

anyway. I understand what you are getting at.. because you are treating the x-hole as an asymmetric spot or a PSA ,the position of it in regards to the PAP does play a part just like the position of the PSA when drilling an asymmetric ball... but is this effect an actual increase or decrease in flare(wider distance between flare rings) or just how the ball revs up..
I ask because I am still in the dark as to what the MB / PSA actually does to the reaction of the ball.. not sure whether it make the ball start its rev sooner or later ... or if when the ball does rev it just allows it to complete the rev to roll cycle faster or sooner.. or if neither of these things are true ...

so based on what you are saying you would not agree with the morich double thumb layout statements ??
---Use for players seeking the STRONGEST ball reaction possible---
"The Double Thumb drilling technique will result in the drilled ball having the strongest mass properties without risking the chance of the ball flaring over the balance hole."
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #18 on:** December 03, 2009, 02:06:38 PM »

You are right there as far as understanding how the mass bias works. You seem to understand why weight holes work. Mass bias is simply a hole in the core that maximizes the differential between the height and width and centralizes it to one axis. (Most times it is not a hole in the core, but the core is wider on one axis than the other)

Draw a line between the pin to the mass bias. This is the line of most resistance. When your PAP is on this line, it is experiencing the most resistance to revolution. As your PAP migrates towards this line, this resistance to revolution grows. Once your PAP crosses this line, it revs easier. Therefore, putting the mass bias close to your VAL lets you cross this line earlier on the lane, causes the ball to rev easier, earlier. Putting the MB further from your VAL delays when the ball starts revving easier.

One caveat: perpendicular to the mass bias axis and the line of greatest resistance through the pin is the line of least resistance. This line crosses an axis 6-3/4" from the pin that goes through the widest part of the core. If your PAP approaches this line, it revs easier and easier until it crosses it. Then it resists revving. This is why you don't put the mass bias in your track. With the mass bias in your track, the line of least resistance is close to your PAP. Your PAP will actually migrate backwards towards the line of least resistance, creating negative flare or flare towards your grip.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

J_w73 · « **Reply #19 on:** December 03, 2009, 02:17:43 PM »

makes sense as you have explained this part to me before..
I saw on the "how stuff is made" show where they put the ball in the derminator and the ball turns to revolve about the PSA.. they called it sort of a steering wheel for the ball..

does the psa or mb help the ball resist rolling forward with this steering wheel effect when the ball hits friction and revs up ?? Kind of like helping the ball turn left with the assistance of the mass bias..

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Edited on 12/3/2009 3:37 PM

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #20 on:** December 03, 2009, 02:32:28 PM »

quote:
makes sense as you have explained this part to me before..
I saw on the "how stuff is made" show where they put the ball in the derminator and the ball turns to revolve about the PSA.. they called it sort of a steering wheel for the ball..

does the psa or mb help the ball resist rolling forward with this steering wheel effect when the ball hits friction and revs up ?? Kind of like helping the ball turn left with the assistance of the mass bias..

and just to confirm.. the MB spot on the ball actually has less mass at that spot.. correct ??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

I guess the best way to describe it is that you are throwing a high rg ball that turns into a low rg ball somewhere down the lane. You get the benefits of both in the same ball. Mb placement decides where this transition takes place.

I may be mistaken, but I think there were balls that were wider than they were tall and so the mass bias on was the widest side. Maybe the Total NV was this way, not sure.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

J_w73 · « **Reply #21 on:** December 03, 2009, 03:05:44 PM »

quote:
quote:
makes sense as you have explained this part to me before..
I saw on the "how stuff is made" show where they put the ball in the derminator and the ball turns to revolve about the PSA.. they called it sort of a steering wheel for the ball..

does the psa or mb help the ball resist rolling forward with this steering wheel effect when the ball hits friction and revs up ?? Kind of like helping the ball turn left with the assistance of the mass bias..

and just to confirm.. the MB spot on the ball actually has less mass at that spot.. correct ??
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

I guess the best way to describe it is that you are throwing a high rg ball that turns into a low rg ball somewhere down the lane. You get the benefits of both in the same ball. Mb placement decides where this transition takes place.

I may be mistaken, but I think there were balls that were wider than they were tall and so the mass bias on was the widest side. Maybe the Total NV was this way, not sure.
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

And how far down the lane or where at in the oil pattern is the best place for this transition to take place?

to confirm.. there is a differnce between mass bias and the mb spot that is marked on the ball..

Mass bias is where most of the mass is..or biased toward.. and the mb spot that is marked on the ball is basically where most of the mass isn't .. making it the high rg axis

?
--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

J_w73 · « **Reply #22 on:** December 03, 2009, 09:50:52 PM »

Also, will this revving occur in oil ..?
So as the ball is flaring down the lane it will begin revving up as the pap passes that point of resistance.?

And when will or what will cause the revving slow down or cease ??

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

kmanestor22 · « **Reply #23 on:** December 04, 2009, 06:08:39 AM »

quote:
Also, will this revving occur in oil ..?
So as the ball is flaring down the lane it will begin revving up as the pap passes that point of resistance.?

And when will or what will cause the revving slow down or cease ??

--------------------
16-17 mph,350 rpm,PAP 5 1/2 x 3/8up, HighGame 300 x 3, High Series 808
Book Average 205,PBA Xperience ave180

Yes, the rev assistance occurs even in oil. You may be able to verify by counting oil rings. Your ball will continue to rev easier and easier until you cross the line of least resistance that I mentioned earlier, then it starts to resist revolutions.

Here's Mo's definition of mass bias:

quote:
Technically speaking, the term mass bias is actually short for enhanced mass bias." Enhanced mass bias refers to increasing the dynamic effect of shifting the center of mass away from the pin by having a specific part of the core present on one side of the ball that is not present on the other side of the ball.

Link: http://morichbowling.com/Drilling/deTerminator/deTerminatorInformation.htm
--------------------
Where is the bait? I'm goin' to jail!!! - Chocolate GAYzer

Author Topic: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP (Read 8423 times)

J_w73

X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

J_w73

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP

kmanestor22

Re: X-HOLE WEIGHT HOLE HELP