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Author Topic: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?  (Read 5020 times)

lefty50

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Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« on: February 26, 2006, 01:28:02 AM »
I've had two people tell me it's possible for my style to just not work with Asyms, but find that questionable. However, I've thrown 3 Asyms including a Classic Zone and a Rule. Both were identical to me,loping trash cans that did nothing.

Is it possible to have a game that matches only to symmetric?
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bgh

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #1 on: February 26, 2006, 09:44:25 AM »
quote:
loping trash cans that did nothing

LOL... Sorry, I can't help, haven't had the balls to go asym yet. My pro shop driller says that if I did eventually decide to go that route, he would suggest, for my game, to go with generalized alignment of very right of thumb with the mb (rh), depending of course on the ball selection. No opinion currently. Still, very interested in this thread.
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Edited on 2/26/2006 11:05 AM

charlest

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #2 on: February 26, 2006, 10:47:40 AM »
quote:

hey lefty............I really think it is possible not to match up well with A-sym. equipment. I have the same problem. Maybe it is the layouts, not too sure. !!


Sorry; you may not match up with a ball, but asymmetrics are not a "type" of ball. They're specific to your PAP and release and they need to be drilled for it and you must throw that release, in general, to use that drilled ball.
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lefty50

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #3 on: February 26, 2006, 01:49:11 PM »
Chunk, I hear ya. Perhaps it's layout specific, and perhaps it's also true that asyms demand a specific release. However, if indeed the ball needs a specific release, as proffered in one of the replies, then the original premise would be true by default, henceforth not "matching up to my game".


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azguy

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #4 on: February 26, 2006, 02:17:37 PM »
I do think aysem's 'help' some more than others. Yes, the ball needs to be drilled for you, your release and style more so than symet's, but that's where I think most folks will decide that they are not right for the ball.

I do think there are some balls/drills that just don't work for some people. Put the wrong drill/style together and that person will say that ball doesn't work for them. I've had a couple balls drilled very close to others, one would work great, the other not so well. Maybe it's just a mental thing, but I tend to do better with one company over another.

No matter if it is mental, most activities are a good portion mental and if you THINK this ball worn't work for you, it won't...no matter what.

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Juggernaut

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2006, 02:30:24 PM »
Like you, I too have problems matching up with assym's. The only ones I have ever had luck with were either drilled with long pin to pap's and long mb to pap's, or pin under ring and mb turned 90 degrees to grip centerline and way below my val.

 Here are some of the assym's I have thrown:
1. killer instinct sanded
2. exception
3. classic zone
4. impulse zone
5. 3-d hammer (original violet)
6. warp zone

 Only the killer instinct and the impulse seemed to work great for me and they were both drilled pin under ring, mb swung out to 90 degrees below my val. Both were smooth, strong and versatile for me.

 The others were drilled what would be called "strongish" and tended to roll well too early for me. I have a "rolly" release anyway, and the added strength of the mass bias in a strong position tended to make the ball roll early and in the case of the classic zone, made the ball roll completely out at about 50 ft.

  Unless I am going to drill it at the 90 degrees, I will stick to symm's. I get enough versatility for what I am trying to accomplish.
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T-GOD

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2006, 03:07:39 PM »
Asymmetrical cores are out of balance by nature. This means they/the ball will flop over more when hitting dry boards, giving a stronger reaction off the dry.

On the contrary, symmetrical cores are balanced, from side to side. A balanced core will roll more consistent when going from the oil to the dry. This gives the ball more control by nature.

So, if you're style likes a more controled reaction down the lane, symmetrical cores will match up better to your game. If you need more help getting the ball to make a stronger move off the dry, then asymmetricals will tend to favor you.

I've come to the conclusion that bowlers who don't turn the ball much, and/or have slower speeds, tend to favor asymmetricals. Higher speeds and bowlers who have more side turn, tend to favor symmetrical core balls. =:^D

Raven829

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2006, 03:19:28 PM »
A good driller can make an asymmetrical ball react however one wants, provided the bowler has a release and is bowling on the conditions conducive to the reaction desired.  For example, no ball will flip hard on the back for a bowler with no tilt or axis rotation.  Asyms are not a solution to bad execution or throwing them on the wrong condition...they are a tool that can be utilized by knowledgeable drillers to enhance ball reaction.  They provide versatility to drillers.  

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Edited on 3/2/2006 2:37 AM
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lefty50

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2006, 06:01:07 PM »
Good discussion, appreciate all comments. However, T-God, I'm the type you describe as "should love asym's", but I hate them...
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Greg T

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2006, 06:57:37 PM »


   I cannot get an assym to hook. Most of my equipment is very strong and sometimes I need speed to get it down the lane, but when I grab an assym (my new Strike Zone) it does nothing. Flares to beat hell but doesnt react. Not even off the dry.


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lilgrob

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2006, 01:07:41 PM »
I agree with Jabroni.  To me asymmetrical balles tend to start up sooner creating more of a midlane roll.  The wieght block is more of a deciding factor on how this ball will roll/hook.  With symmetrical balls, there is less of a loping motion which helps them be cleaner through the fronts and stronger on the back or read the friction a lot harder.  This is all relative to the bowler of course.  People will claim the opposite but that has more to do with certain balls matching up to a players game.  Chris Barnes once told me he wasn't a fan of asymmetrical cores and didn't think they were necessary.  He mentioned that he drilled quite a few Classic Zones before he swicthed to Columbia and never did like any of them.  Is it becasue he has a lot of forward roll?  Maybe.  Does that mean that the Classic Zone was a terrible ball?  Of course not.  There are plenty of people who have had success with that ball from league to a professional level.  But I do believe that some people will not like/match up to these cores becasue they like to see their balls do specific things.  Lefty probably has a distinct look he likes to see when he throws his ball and it may be a roll that asymmetricals just can't provide.  Just my 2 cents though...
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wulfpackbwlr

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2006, 01:38:01 PM »
I'd have to say as well that it's more not matching up to the core, cover, drilling, etc. than anything.  I've not matched up well with asymetrical equipment probably less than with symetrical.  Once again it doesn't mean the equipment I've failed with was bad, just not for me.
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charlest

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2006, 03:07:28 PM »
quote:
Charlest.........I disagree, Asyms. are a "type" of ball.....are you telling me there is no difference between a sym. core and an asym. core? There are very distinct difference in personalities when it comes to the two cores which in turn makes them 2 different types of balls in terms of characteristics and reactions. I can put a similar layout on one of each type of ball and I will get 2 totally different reactions down the lane.
But like I said in my post you have to match the layout to y. our style for the condition you want to use it on. I have owned a couple different Asyms. core balls and I have not been able to score well.


Chuck300,

Sorry if I did not express myself correctly, but several here have already responded in the nature that I intended.

99% of the problems people have with asymmetrics, or more correctly mass bias balls involving the determination of the bowler's PAP and in properly drilling the balls, according to the manufacturer's instructions, to get the designed-in reactionsAND the use on the right oil pattern.

This is the ONLY place or situation where non-mass bias may not be sutiable for you. On the side, there is always the on going problems of people not recognizing what type of bowler they are (it is often not simple nor straightforward) and using the ball on the wrong oil pattern or amount of oil. These people often claim the ball is a "bad ball". Don't look at the arrow; look at the indian; don't look at the rifle; look at the shooter.

Mass bias balls are trickier to drill and, as Jabroni indicated, can reach their PSA very quickly, compared to non-mass bias balls. Once drilled they must be delivered with the same PAP for which it was drilled or the ball reaction will not be that for which it was drilled. In that manner they are more restrictive than non-mass bias balls, but they are capable of a larger range of potential drills to make the ball do more than the equivalent non-mass bias ball.

Side note: Asymmetric cores are no longer a class of balls. The One and the Big One are symmetric cores with a (currently) extremely high mass bias differential.

In case you think I am picking on you, I also have had some troubles with mass bias balls myself due to mostly my tendency to change hand positions and releases a lot, thus changing my PAP. I think I have solved that problem as well as better understood some of the more unusual mass bias balls and their unusual dynamics. SOme Morich balls can be tricky, especially the Vanguard core.

That said, my point of view remains:  99% of the problems with balls is people using them in the wrong situation. 99% of the problems with mass bias balls is the wrong drilling for the bowler.

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Edited on 3/1/2006 6:27 PM
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T-GOD

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2006, 03:26:53 PM »
Jabs, assymetrical cores react quicker off the dry. Why, because the cores lope and are out of balance. A loping core doesn't pick up an early roll. This makes them more angular off dry boards. They fall faster to their PSA, meaning they turn sharper.

They also bleed off energy sooner, hence a faster spin time.

Symmetrical cores have a slower spin time, meaning they store energy longer. But, they do roll earlier. Meaning they're better on oily conditions because they pick up a roll sooner in oil.

The reason Lane #1 balls have more pop is because if you keep the ball in the oil, the core is rolling, not loping, therefore, the ball is not sliding as much, which gives it more pop at the pins.

Because they roll earlier, bowlers with more side turn get them to react stronger down the lane, coupled with a slower spin time (energy doesn't bleed off as fast), they can give you more backend at times.

Overall, assym's give you a sharper breakpoint when they do hook, but this also makes them over react and more inconsistant. Does this make any sense to you..? =:^D

charlest

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Re: Is it possible to just not match up to Asym?
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2006, 05:46:42 PM »
quote:
Jabs, assymetrical cores react quicker off the dry.



The One and the Big One are not asymmetrical; they are symmetrically shaped cores. Yet they have a VERY large mass bias differential.

quote:

 Why, because the cores lope and are out of balance. A loping core doesn't pick up an early roll.



depends on the ball's covertsock properties and the cover's finish and the poil pattern on which it is used.

quote:

This makes them more angular off dry boards. They fall faster to their PSA, meaning they turn sharper.



They can reach their PSA faster; depends, again, on the above mentioned factors. They can be earlier than non-mass bias balls also, depending on the surface and the oil amounts, etc.

quote:

They also bleed off energy sooner, hence a faster spin time.



All other factors being equal, then yes.

quote:

Symmetrical cores have a slower spin time,



in general, they have NO spin time. the numbers, IN GENERAL, are so much higher, they are often not even quoted.

quote:

 meaning they store energy longer. But, they do roll earlier. Meaning they're better on oily conditions because they pick up a roll sooner in oil.



depends on the "14"+ factors quoted above.

quote:

The reason Lane #1 balls have more pop is because if you keep the ball in the oil, the core is rolling, not loping, therefore, the ball is not sliding as much, which gives it more pop at the pins.



Yup, the Silver Diamond, as one example, never, ever loped.

sigh ....

quote:

Because they roll earlier, bowlers with more side turn get them to react stronger down the lane, coupled with a slower spin time (energy doesn't bleed off as fast), they can give you more backend at times.



Hunh??

Given surface, coverstock strength, bowler's release, oil amount and length, any ball is capable of anything. Lane#1 is not better and no wrose than any other manufacturer's balls.

quote:

Overall, assym's give you a sharper breakpoint when they do hook, but this also makes them over react and more inconsistant. Does this make any sense to you..? =:^D


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Edited on 3/2/2006 1:55 AM
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