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Author Topic: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?  (Read 29196 times)

mumzie

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Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« on: December 21, 2003, 05:39:48 AM »
I get soooo confused - pin in or out cg in, or kicked. PAP, 4x8, etc.

Is there one place to go that would have all the info?

Pin in means blah. Causes the ball to do this...
Pin out means blah blah. Causes the ball to do that.
CG in means...
CG out means...
How to measure PAP?
Where to put a weight hole for different effects

And so on.
I can figure out that one layout does something different than another (duh), but when someone asks me how I want a ball laid out, I don't have a clue where to start.
When would I ask for a pin in ball? pin out? more top weight? less?

You get the idea.
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pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #61 on: February 15, 2004, 07:11:44 PM »
Folks, I've put this all in a word document, complete with graphics and illustrations. It's 33 pages and counting!


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Edited on 2/16/2004 8:02 PM
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JohnP

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #62 on: February 15, 2004, 08:08:20 PM »
pjr300 -- Thanks, I was wondering how I was going to get it all printed out.  And thanks, LuckyLefty for the willingness to share the information you have gathered.  --  JohnP

pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #63 on: February 15, 2004, 08:10:46 PM »



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Edited on 2/16/2004 8:01 PM
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pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #64 on: February 15, 2004, 08:56:50 PM »

That's kinda like a 45* drilling I believe, but with that pin position it should reduce flare even more.


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pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #65 on: February 26, 2004, 09:26:17 PM »

Hi LL! Any updates in the works?

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livespive

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #66 on: March 02, 2004, 12:51:29 PM »
Nah,

He is just still typing his post. lol
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #67 on: March 03, 2004, 06:47:30 AM »
My son started waking up here every time I came in and typed at 6:00 am when I usually do it.  I like you guys but I can do without that!

Here we go!

OK.

So a quick review.
1.We talked about cores, high potential hook potential, low hook potential, high flip potential, low flip potential, early roll and late roll.
2. We talked about pin to pap distances.
3. we talked about cg out, cg stacked, cg kicked label or back towards cg and integrating with your style.  (up the backer, perfect 45, sideroller, and spinner).
4.  We talked cg up or down combined with short pins and long pins. DONE
5. I've promised a little more about midlane control. NOT DONE
6. last will be weightholes.  Not DONE
7. OK I'll add some drill ideas for some non league shots that have worked for me and some people I know or have helped a little. NOT DONE
8. small little bonus to refer to here.  I recently posted a section on heavy oil(flat) and heavy oil (league).  Here's the link. http://www.ballreviews.com/Forum/Replies.asp?TopicID=46810&ForumID=16&CategoryID=5

OK, MOre on midlane.

Remember all that core stuff at the beginning, Comon, no skipping ahead!!
Balls that supply good midlane have cores that are wider in the midlane(examples tour power, vortex particle), cores that are providing less midlane are frequently straight down or even narrower in the middle of the core(reaction rip was are example here) frequently these balls go fairly straight in the midlane.

SO what are our options.  There is no doubt that whether your core supplies it or not you can increase it or decrease it.  To increase midlane off the stacked drilling(the stacked drilling provides to you what the core provides on it's own!)  One only has to kick out the cg (or mass bias to not upset the mass bias crowd).  Kick what ever it is out!!!!!  But how far???  Well if one wants to maintain backend I recommend for the side roller not much more than an inch oh an inch and 1/2 can work.  If an up the backer I would typically not go up to an inch unless the pin out is 4 inches out.  Remember this is to provide backend AND MIDLANE!!!!!

However if one doesn't care about backend, well one can go all the way to the total kick out, cg on pap.  This drilling often called axis, or axis leverage, supplies tons of midlane, and complete roll for backend and very little hit.
Especially for the up the backer!!!  The bowler must supply the hit.

Happy mediums or hook set are at the midpoints.  Usually called a 45 degree!
Often a 4 X 2 with a weighthole on pap can work for the side roller!  I'd rather see the 4 X 3 for an up the backer with a weighthole on PAP to get near the same reaction.  Interesting is that different balls can supply near the same reaction with variations of this drill.

For example, my Crimson REd Sledgehammer is drilled 3 3/8 X 1 with a weighthole on pap and is almost the same reaction as my 4 X 4 Ti Hawk with a weighthole on the pap.  Why the Sledgehammer is a more flippy core when stacked.  Laying it more on it's side took out more of the potential of the core.  (REmember, "Help me I've partially fallen, and I can't fall all the way")  Both balls I've brought out on shorter conditions heavy head oil and extreme backend and not come close to making a fool of myself!

So to add midlane, kick out.  More kick out for the side roller, less for the 45 degreeer and even less for the up the backer to provide the same midlane.(remember the up the back release supplies midlane, they don't need a lot of help in this area).

The opposite is true for decreasing midlane for the bowler.  Kick the cg back towards the grip or even towards the negative side of the ball.  (This for the mass bias crowd can yes apply to the mass bias position). This applys when one has a gradual pattern.  What I mean by that is that there is X amount of head oil and then it decreses and a cg out ball has trouble pushing to the breakpoint it's nice to have a 90 degree or 135 degree ball to allow one to push to the break point.  Again taking the concept above it works in reverse.  The up the backer needs more kick under to help him get less midlane.  The side roller his release often does not get him an early read in the midlane.  For him just slightly off stacked reduces his minimal natural midlane just enough.  Let's say he will get a similar read of the midlane with a 90 degree drilling where our up the backer needs 135 to get the same length thru the mids.

This explains why our up the backers tend to operate in a range of cg way back towards grip(135) to a slight kick out(60 degrees) where our side roller ranges more in the 90 degree to 25 degree area.  The difference in midlane that their release provides on the same condition.

Capece!?

Summary:  All variations off stacked reduce core flip potential(why?, flip blocks are no longer straight up. they are laying on their side in variations off stacked reducing potential to fall!!)        

Enough on the important topic of midlane!

Onward HO!

WEightholes.

REgards,

Luckylefty

Edited on 3/3/2004 8:27 AM
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #68 on: March 03, 2004, 07:49:34 AM »
Weightholes!!!

Finally.

Oh, to stop this right here!!!
This is not a discussion on WHY weightholes work.

There are numerous posts on this on this site!!!
They break out about as often as flu break outs and spread just as quickly.
They often develop into epidemics of posts that can overwhelm an organism and have been known to cause death by boredom to the elderly.  (as maybe this long winded set of posts has done to some of our readers!  Young and old alike!)

Please I've provided a post called "Why do weightholes work" under drilling!!!
Feel free to fill it!!!!

Anyone got the feeling that this post here will be about "What weightholes do what and which ones work?"  Hope so!

ANyway, pretty easy here.  We are going to seperate weightholes in to two groups.

Weightholes that increse reaction and weightholes that decrease reaction(or another way of phrasing this is weightholes that increase midlane and decrease backend).

WEIGHTHOLES THAT DECREASE REACTION
1. Weightholes on PAP
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.

Not a lot there.  These babies just work!!!  A lot.

To be continued.

Work calls

Luckylefty
PS I'll be back sooner than the last time!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #69 on: March 04, 2004, 08:38:35 PM »

more great stuff! thanks!!!
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LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #70 on: March 06, 2004, 01:51:41 AM »
OK, More on weightholes.

To digress slightly at this point.  Let me tell you about the methodology I use and have used to test weightholes.

First of all I throw balls initially off the press, even if I know they are going to be illegal.

This is a great learning experience, I believe everyone should do the same.
It has taught me a lot.  For example, one common belief today about statics is that they don't matter.  Well if you believe that buy a ball with 4 ounces of top weight and drill it with the cg out so that you end up with about 1 3/4 ounces of side weight.  It is then that you will see that statics and high amounts or low amounts of top weight DO affect reaction.

One of the first things you will notice if you throw a ball like above without a weight legalizing weighthole is that depending on the condition the illegal sideweight ball high topweight ball will really hit HARD if you have dry to the outside.  It is noticiable different.  It also wants to skid hard towards those outer boards and will get out there and if they are dry it will appear to almost bounce in to the pocket.

Put this ball on a more testing condition say with out of bounds to the outside of 10 and if you are swinging the ball you will notice that this ball wants to skid but now this time instead of into dry as above but now it wants to skid in to the outof bounds.

The ball on the two conditions above will have what golfers call in their game, a high dispersion pattern.  Seemingly in the midlane they will diverge if setup this way or your throwing errors will seem to be magnified near the breakpoint.  These illegal balls can make it easier to strike but also make it easier to look like a fool!!!  Especially on tougher patterns!  (OB outside or flatter conditions).

Now if you have the money you can take another ball drilled the same way that has a 2 ounce starting top weight and drill the same possibly and be just legal and have lower ending top weight(near 0 as the average had reduces top weight once inserts are put back in by 1.5 to 2.0 ounces.).

Now throw this similarly drilled same model ball, (or believe me).  You will instantly see that this ball doesn't skid as hard, doesn't bounce as hard and seems to be a little more rounded in it's move near the breakpoint.  More midlane!  This ball has less dispersion but it also is harder to skid in a straight line to your breakpoint.  It wants to READ the lane earlier.

So now we've got something to work with.

So after throwing we can now decide.

So approximately where do I put these weightholes???
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1. Do I like the amount of skid and also like the backend?

Solution = a weighthole on a line from grip center thru cg to a point 1 inch past your VAL, a 31/32 drill bit works great and take side down to 3/4 to 1/2 ounce positive.  This weighthole for most bowlers is not that far from the top weight bottom weight equator of your ball which is 6 3/4 from the grip center for all bowlers(regardless of pap).
Therefore this weighthole almost maintains the after drill pre weighthole top weight and seems to maintain most of the skid and backend you had while testing pre weighthole.

2. Do I think it is too much skid and but do I still like the backend.

If this is the case then the ideal weighthole is a 31/32 bit drilled in to the VAL at the intersection of the grip center, cg, VAL line. And angle the weighthole 1/2 inch away from your grip center.  Taking side down to about 1/2 ounce positive.

This weighthole is my personally most used and I believe the powerful weapon for giving one the best reaction on today's conditions.  IF the ball already had skid and backend.  This weighthole will add midlane, (or less skid and less dispersion at the breakpoint), it will also maintain a lot of backend turn the corner ability for this ball, if not add a touch).  When I think of this weighthole I think of Pattern B of the PBA.  Where skid out to an out of bounds is not desired and yet turn the corner ability from the inside is needed.

THIS is truly the ticket on many of today's wetter backend conditions and also often on league shots with hold area.

3.  You think there is too much skid and too much dispersion and also the backend is too big for where you intend to use the ball.

Well no doubt about it.  This weighthole is either put on the PAP or on the VAL intersection of the grip center, cg line to VAL with a smaller drillbit.  59/64 my favorite and the hole is drilled straight in to get sideweight to 1/2 to 1/4 ounce positive.  

This weighthole adds midlane and takes away backend.  If you use this ball on a league with a lot of hold area in the back or carrydown this ball is going to corner pin you to death as it hook sets and does not get high enough on the head pin to carry.  This weighhole is the Pattern A or Pattern C champ and works on a lot of sport patterns, world team challenge or the above tour patterns whose primary feature is a very hard transition off the dry in the back.  If it does not hit in league now one has themselves a powerful weapon to take to a tough tournament condition.  A wonderful weapon to pull out when you or your opponents are getting ready to leave 4 9 or the lefty a 6-8.  If these suckers are falling slow 1 time and you threw it right.  Get this unexciting smooth performer in your hands.  

Specialty weightholes.

The Revs Leverage hole.  This weighthole is a powerful additon to your ball lineup.  Shown in the Ebonite drill sheets.  This weighthole is positioned by putting the cg down at least an inch or 1 1/2 inches below the grip center north south equator and then the weighthole is drilled on the VAL in the intersection of the grip center cg, val intersection line.  If the cg is placed properly for this PURE Revs leverage setup this weighthole will end up being 6 inches below your pap on your VAL.  This setup and weighthole by placing the core so far down in relation to your grip ends up being a trememdous REVVER! This setup usually revs about 2 times in the air BEFORe hitting the lane.

This weighthole can be angled out 1/2 inch also.

Now, I don't typically go all the way to this REVs leverage setup.
I use a modified version often(as detailed in an earlier section). Where I place the cg down 1/2 inch to 1 inch down depending on how early I want the core to rev.  REgardless the CG position the weighthole is usually placed on the grip center, cg to VAL line or slightly lower.  Oh I also when playing deep inside go all the way to a 1 inch drill bit size and drill out the sideweight with this wider shallower hole.

A few weighthole thoughts.

1. These observations on weightholes were all made after throwing the ball with the illegal sideweight.  Comparisons were made to the initial pre weighthole reaction and if I didn't like the weighthole reaction the hole would be plugged and either moved or drilled with a different angle.  Many experiments were done on size, angle, placement.  Allowing you to shortchange that process.

To be continued.

REgards,

Luckylefty

It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

JohnP

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #71 on: March 06, 2004, 10:16:05 AM »
Luckylefty -- Great information, thank you for posting it.  I do have one question, though.  When you refer to the cg of a drilled ball, are you talking about the undrilled cg (that you used for the layout), or do you redetermine the cg of the drilled ball on a dodo scale?  (I think you are referring to the original cg, but want to be sure.)  --  JohnP

LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #72 on: March 06, 2004, 09:31:56 PM »
Original marking.

REgards,

Luckylefty
To be continued, I'm travelling for 10 days!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #73 on: March 20, 2004, 04:09:17 PM »
OK,  some more!

Here's what' happening!

Lately for whatever reason, people out of the blue, who are very good bowlers are coming up to me and saying, "hey, could you design a ball for me for Pattern E", "Pattern B", "Pattern C".

Sport shot, you name it!  They are asking.  I don't know where it started(one guy around here has let the word out that I might know something about this).

Anyway results have been gratifying!  One guy who was high average around here ASKEd me and went and just about led qualifying on pattern C, after coming in near last at his last regional.  We also prepped up a B and an E ball for him.

Here on the site I'm getting a lot of personal mails asking for same.  Frankly I can't handle it.  Busy running a business that supports my lazy Ex wife and then trying to feed myself in my spare time!  he he!  Gotta love it!

Anyway, I promised all the PBA patterns and some more.  Well not gonna do it exactly.

What I'll do is give you my opinion of each shot, and then what qualities your ball and drilling must have.  The hints should guide you to the promised land.

If you need more, message me here and I'll give personal advice for a modest paypal fee!  For the guys I've been able to give some ideas to so far,  bon appetit!  Enjoy, prosper, and kill em with it!  I was glad to do it but my time grows shorter each day!

Again, some concepts to remember as we lay out some ideas for PBA patterns.
1. High diffs and dense flip blocks give the potential for a lot of around the corner action.
2. Weightblocks that are wide in the middle have a lot of midlane, weightblocks that are thin in the middle have very little midlane and go very straight to the breakpoint!
3. Low RG balls and particles start working in the heads and force one to usually swing the ball a little.  Is there recovery in the backend to allow this?
4. Reactives still seem to have more pure backend than particles, particles real function is to moderate the over/under.
5. Most league stuff in general is too jumpy and strong for PBA, world team challenge, and sport conditions.  If you bring them you will look like the fool you are.  You may see yourself the poster boy of PBA Box that says, Joe Brought his League Stuff, 236 at home, 176 in PBA qualifying.  Remember they are trying to make a fool out of you!  Don't let them!
6. The full potential of today's balls is often needed and helpful in league and a hindrance on these tough conditions.  Don't worry though, muting reactions is easy!
7.  Pin up positions, above the fingers(enhance the around the corner) ability of a ball, Pin down positions even with fingers or below decreases the cornering ability of the same ball and enhances smoothness.
8.  Surface tells a ton about what happens in the heads, rg and midlane drilling adjusmtents, (cg out, cg stacked, and cg in towards grip and up or down) control midlane, and final core specs, pin position, and weightholes determine a ton about backend.  Large total hook, small total hook, sharp hook, smooth hook.
9.  In general most of these conditions have no or little call for around the corner activity except pattern B!  Note many of today's wetter league conditions call for balls drilled near pattern B.  These balls are a disaster on A, C, E and Sport!

Here we go.

To be continued!

REgards,

Luckylefty
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana

pjr300

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #74 on: March 20, 2004, 07:52:01 PM »

Great insight, LL... thanks! As you know, I keep most of my stuff low flare and quite non-aggressive. It should make it an easy jump to the PBA for me (lol).


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LuckyLefty

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Re: Is there one place to go for all the drilling info?
« Reply #75 on: March 21, 2004, 01:52:50 AM »
Maybe!  

If you are still carrying flush in league then you are a large handed monster and maybe need to weaken equipment slightly for tough tournaments!  

If however most of your stuff designed for PBA and WTC, and Sport patterns can get to the pocket in league and can't quite carry, now you've really got something.

That's why I sort of have a league arsenal(aggresive, core maximizing setups), and then I have tournament, muting and smoothing setups.  However, I am very moderate handed but softer speeded than the average tournament bowler.  Meaning I am a reaction maximizer.  Faster speed bowlers with less axis rotation than me are able to make their equipment more versatile than me and carry better even when not really flushing the pocket!

REgards,

LUckylefty
PS I remember once hearing from a very good bowler in my area, (high revs and high speed)  "Boy I wish I could create the backend you do!"  ME "wha....??"
This guy had twice my revs but only about 5 mph faster than me.  If he only had my problems!  Too much reaction.  Too many ex wives!
PS I really know that I have something for most tournament condtions when I sort of like the look (smooth), but it usually is not enough to carry on most of my leagues.  My Ti Hawk has never shot a high league set, put it in the tournament bag and 670s first time it was used on PBA pattern.  It's high EVER!
PPS as a good friend(and a very savvy and good bowler)said to me recently while bowling on absolute dog meat leftovers.  This IS truly CR..P!  When you bowl on PBA patterns one never has this much slop at the back.  "There is always HOOK!"
Almost true!
It takes Courage to have Faith, and Faith to have Courage.

James M. McCurley, New Orleans, Louisiana